Everyone join in ! - Experts Forum at VenomousReptiles.org

Everyone join in !	Reply
by idioteque4444 on November 18, 2006	Mail this to a friend!
With all of the recent negative posts going back and forth on this site about how this hobby is headed into a "downward spiral", I'm curious to know how many members here have climbed on board with NCARK/SCARK ? Our hobby is being targeted. And it's only a matter of time before it is taken away, and we are all left standing with our hands wide open saying, "but why"? Andrew Wyatt of NCARK has been spending so much time and money on fighting the possibility of a nationwide ban. Concentrating first on the Southeast range. His hard work and dedication is appreciated so much by some. I know I would not be able to devote as much time into what he is doing...would any of you? But, it bothers me to hear how many people show no interest in what Andrew is trying to do for us. Many members on this site that have recently been talking about what needs to be done to save this hobby have shown no interest. WHY? Andrew doesn't keep venomous reptiles, but yet, he is still fighting for us. I think more people need to listen to what he has to say. Just because you don't live in the Southeast region, doesn't mean NCARK's purpose doesn't apply to you. It's about our rights to keep what we want to keep. But, we need to do it in a professional manner. We need to show that we are responsible keepers. We need to show that our concerns are not only for ourselve and our own animals, but also for our communities and the people around us like family and neighbors. We need to listen if we want to be listened to. We can't be rebellious...rebellion will fuel the fires. We can't finger point and blame certain hot keepers, because they have little knowledge on venomous and wind up getting bit by his/her Green Mamba. We need to help these people the best we can to avaid these situations, regardless if we think they should or shouldn't keep hots. Chances are they will keep them anyway. Lately, and I think you can all agree, there has been so few "positive" posts here. Just about every topic is negative, and turns into a heated debate. This part of the website I'm sure was put here to ask questions and share knowledge and ideas. But, recently, it seems, anyone who asks a question or seeks information is labeled "inexperienced". It then, turns into a who should and shouldn't have venomous animals, or who knows more than the next. Does anyone truly think that somewhere down the line, that someone who is involved with trying to take our hobby away isn't aware of this site? I'm sure someone is. And, I think alot of this arguing and disagreement and finger-pointing on this subject can, and probably, will be used as amunition for a "ban". As for the term "EXPERTS"...no one on this site is an "expert". If any of us were "experts" we would all be in agreement on all topics, because we would all have the correct answers to every subject. In the last few weeks there has been many threads between the younger/inexperienced herpers and the "experts". How can someone be an "expert" on something that can be so deadly like venomous reptiles? The first person who has found a way to rise above the threat/possibility of an envenomation, has in fact, become an "EXPERT"! Personally for me, I don't want to be an "expert". I enjoy learning and sharing thoughts and ideas on everything, even if it is different from someone elses. Me and John Z have had many discussions where we disagree or have different opinions on things. But, it is all in good fun. And, when it comes down to it, me and John can stand across from each other face to face and talk about stuff like what can be done to help our hobby. I would like to see comments from as many members on this site as possible about this post. I'd like to know who agrees or who thinks I am wrong on what I have said. I'm curious to hear from the "old-timers" on this site, including the people who no longer post that much, like Al Cortiz. I'd like to hear from the other opinionated people, like John Z and Rob Carmichael. Members from Karl Betz to rabbitsmcgates, Chris Harper to Phillip Higgins. We all have a love for this hobby, and I think it would be a shame to let it go to waste because we may disagree on other people practices. As I've said before, I'm sure in the eyes of God, none of us are fit to keep venomous reptiles. I hope I'm not just blowing off steam. I hope we all get to enjoy this hobby for many more years to come ! SAL RICCO WNCHerps salricco@bellsouth.net P.S. Hey Andrew, I hope I left you an open door...

RE: Everyone join in !	Reply
by FLherp on November 18, 2006	Mail this to a friend!
I am afraid that even experts (no matter the subject) do not agree totally on every issue. And even in the sciences some discussions turn ugly. However, it might be better for all involved if there was more civility in the dialogue. It is possible to be passionate and wrong simultaneously. If any of us can remember our days in school, who wanted to ask questions in the class where the teacher ridiculed the students? We don't need to give out hugs and sit in a circle and sing kumbayah, but perhaps we might be a little less harsh when criticizing each others posts. I have found that contrary ideas receive a little better reception when the presentation is more positive. A great deal of this attitude might be attributable to the anonymity of the net, but perhaps we should frame our responses as if it were not so. Heaping scorn on the "uninitiated" is not the best way to get others to listen to you. For any that have provided any public education, how many of you dismiss and poke fun at those who ask questions during your presentations? And I have heard some doozies.

RE: Everyone join in !	Reply
by rickyduckworth on November 18, 2006	Mail this to a friend!
again, it really has nothing to do with responsibility when it comes to fighting what responsible keepers can't control. you can be as responsible as you want, but when Mr. Durvish McFurvurmuffin decides to get a venomous snake as a first pet animal, then the bad comes along with it and we can't stop it. we have to play their games. those games involve money, but not common sense, proof some people are capable, etc. the downward spiral is inevitable due to public opinion on snakes and the way the media takes mistakes and runs with them. most mistakes in this hobby are noteworthy and the possibility for death is usually part of the formula. that is interesting to fools who think rattlers are out to get us and is "news".

RE: Everyone join in !	Reply
by jared on November 18, 2006	Mail this to a friend!
"an expert is someone who has made all the mistakes one can make in a very narrow field." Niels Bohr Just pokin Jared

RE: Everyone join in !	Reply
by Cro on November 18, 2006	Mail this to a friend!
Sal, you have brought up some very good points. I joined NCARK a long while back, and have tried to get other members here to support NCARK/SCARK, as we have to win the fight against restrictive legislation in every state. The animal rights nutcases have a plan to try to introduce thier agenda state by state. All they need to do is recrute one nit-whit Legislator from a state to introduce their restrictive bills. And since almost any State Legislature if filled with nit-whits, it is easy for them to do. We have to find the intelligent folks in the Legislature, and show them that the HSUS, PETA, etc are radical outfits who want to not only ban the ownership of animals like reptiles, but almost all other pets also. The pioneer work that NCARK has done under Andrews leadership is huge, and I sure hope it will spread to other states, and that all the members here will make a contribution to the cause, no matter what state they live in. Some people here seem to have already given up, or are just to lazy to help. They respond with comments about how its all about money and and paid off judges, but they do not bother to join NCARK / SCARK, or try to create a similar outfit in their own state. Sal`s comments about trying to keep this site on a more Professional level is also very important. We all too often fall into soap-opra mode, and get into silly arguments. We already do a good job of helping folks who come here who ask for help. There are some folks though when given good advise, do not follow it, and wind up hurting the hobby when they get bitten and wind up on the national news feeds. We really can not do much about that other than do what Al suggested, and just ignore the folks who are just stirring things up. It is difficult to ignore folks like that though, as there is something about an unanswered post that makes folks just want to comment, even when they know they should stay out of it. On the subject of "Experts," well, the only thing worse than an Expert is someone who calls themself an Expert ! "Ask the Experts" is an unfortunate heading for that part of the site, as I do not believe that any of the fine folks who answer questions there would want to be called Expert. The site would probably be better titled "Ask the Experienced Reptile Keepers" or something like that. If someone considers themselves an Expert, they have closed their mind to new learning. They think they know it all and they think they are special. Thay type of thinking makes for a person who is a real jerk. I will repeat, as far as I can tell, the fine folks who answer questions in the Experts section do not consider themselves as experts, but as Keepers with More Experience. It does not matter if you are a Curator, Zookeeper, Advanced Hobbyist, Beginning Hobbyist, Teacher, or whatever, we are all here to learn new things from each other. Just dont get hung up on the name of the section, or change it to something different. Sal`s point about having FUN on the site is very important also. Good natured discussions are a great way for everyone to jump in and offer ideas. The trick is to not take things too seriously and get upset if someone does not agree with you. Look at it this way, we go to a reptile show and have a lot of fun when talking to folks in person, and we should be able to do the same thing here. Just a few thoughts from an "opinionated old-timer," LOL. Best Regards JohnZ

RE: Everyone join in !	Reply
by rickyduckworth on November 18, 2006	Mail this to a friend!
giving up and going at it the right way are two different things. i'm not dumb enough to believe that people will all of a sudden see our point of view though. persistence really won't be rewarded either. i think there is more success to be had by treating this as an economic issue only, screw the civil rights because i doubt the ACLU even cares. in alabama, hot keepers are either inbred idiots that are best kept secrets or they are one of the 6 or 7 of us who care. numbers don't work in our favor. this is the bible belt, where god condemned snakes to their bellies to eat dirt for eternity, and these idiots are just backwoods enough to believe that is the snakes' role, to be a dirt eating earthly inmate. i've yet to see any real help from other out of state organizations either becaue everyone is trying to address their own issues, and that's why i'm not a NCARK member. and i'm cheap ;). we can't afford to go at it on a national level right now anyway when states are the real issue, and in that case, there is no reason other than camraderie to join out of state special interest groups. it gives a false sense of security to some and they sit on their hands. in alabama, we have to enlist the OTHER snake guys (boas, pythons, etc) because they actually DO exist here somewhat frequently. i'd prefer them set up a permit system that addresses it all, because by 2010, large boid owners will be feeling just as much heat as us. it's not really a HUGE topic here either. if that one stupid kid with the cobra and mamba hadn't kept his snakes in a cardboard box, then they'd not have any type of laws here. there was no fallout over the last case where a killer false water cobra was found. it made headlines but was forgotten. that was an election ploy anyway. i've not given up, but i'm not naive either. i know that money DOES talk (check out the tobacco and alcohol laws, the lack of regulation of the construction industry's hiring practices, etc) and hopefully i can figure out a way to make it say the right things. hopefully i can send something to someone the first week of january. and i may destroy the rest of our rights, who knows :)

RE: Everyone join in !	Reply
by MoccasinMan on November 19, 2006	Mail this to a friend!
Thanks Sal. Let me try to emphasize a point of great import to the entire SE region. There are 2 reasons that AR legislation has been passed in SE states that has negatively impacted private reptile ownership. 1) AR activists have gotten bills passed quickly in the dark of night. 2) The apathy in addressing the AR movement has resulted in weak or no oposition to their proposals resulting in bills passed. What happened in GA falls under #1. What happened in AL, TN and KY fall under #2. NC, GA and Fla are the strongest states in terms of reptile expertise and leadership in the SE. It is interesting to note that these are also the strongest states in terms of membershiup in NCARK/SCARK. Why do you suppose GA and Fla, who already have legislation are so active in NCARK/SCARK? It is because they realize that what happens in NC & SC has far reaching impact on the entire herp community. Precedents will be set by what happens here. If enlightened, reasonable legislation is passed in NC and then in SC we will have an opportunity to reverse the trend that the AR movement has established. NC has become a keystone state in the fight against the AR movement. If we fail, kiss the whole thing good bye. Who here doesn't believe that a reversal in the trend will not benefit evryone in the herp community? Please resist the temptation to rationalize why you should not get involved. The more peolple who get involved the more power we have. Don't let your distain for the system and powers that be keep you from participating. If you want better laws, you better get of yor ass and do something about it! We are on the verge of a major victory in NC. That will be a great vitory for the entire SE, and a shot accross the bow of the AR movement. There is much going on behind the scenes and we have support from sectors that most would find hard to imagine. Do you want that victory to influence the future in your state? You can be can sit behind your computer and cynically complain about why the situation is hopeless, or you can educate yourself on how to have an impact on your own community. Endeavor to Persevere! For better or worse we are all in this thing together! Andrew Wyatt NC Association of Reptile Keepers www.NCARK.org 252-207-1041 PS- if you don't realize it, there are far more people working with the Boids than hots. NCARK was founded by both boid and hot keepers... majority boids. by the way Sal, I do keep Native hots as well as boids. For anyone knowlegeable in NC law, I have all the endangered permits from NC WRC, so my collection is 100% legal. *** if your house is not in order as far as legality, proper caging, housing and husbandry you need to get it in order. Don't be the next rabbit.

RE: Everyone join in !	Reply
by Rob_Carmichael on November 20, 2006	Mail this to a friend!
Since I was originally labeled as one of the "opinionated" ones here, I'll just keep mine very brief (so as to not upset any folks here who can't handle a little differing of opinions....it's a very healthy thing but too many folks get all bent out of shape if someone doesn't agree with their opinion)....this will be long but brief for me:-) Anyway, I could write for days on the subject and still not be any closer to a good resolution due to the complexity of the problem. There are many, many components to saving private rights to own venomous and certain things have to be in place. MONEY AND POWER is something that we fail to identify but its something that has to be in place in order for a national movement to be successful. I've said it over and over, but we should be looking at other organizations who've gone through similar struggles and challenges and see what they've done to protect their hobby/etc. Falconry may be a good example even though its a much different activity from keeping venomous. Falconry has set up a great network between local, state and federal government while devising a great "self policing" system that weeds out most people wishing to keep raptors just for the "cool" factor. They are a pretty tight knit community who takes what they do very seriously but still have a passion for their hobby. The process to become a falconer is very difficult and deliberately made so in order to protect the hobby while making sure that only the truly committed, serious and resource minded people enjoy the sport...there's even a minimum age requirement; imagine that! Those w/out the commitment, knowledge, and resources never get off the ground. I think its a rock solid system. Of course, in an ideal world, no regulations would be the way to go but that's not going to happen and as long as any person off the street can walk into a reptile swap, throw down a few bucks on the table and walk out with a lethal weapon is allowed to occur, we can most assuredly count on having ongoing regulations to outlaw venomous reptiles. Unscrupulous dealers, breeders, dishonest buyers, unqualified keepers, lack of a good system, etc. etc.....we can all point the fingers on each other for the mess we've created. A national body/voice is a great idea; kudos to Andrew for trying to make a difference. Unless you either get the masses behind you willing to actively contact their legislators, and/or, get high profile, politically connected people with power and money, it will be a very difficult battle to win....but I'm an optimist and I believe it can be done. Other important players include changing the philosophy of AZA who typically denounces the private right to keeping venomous and many zoos shadow this philosophy. Many local law enforcement and state agencies look to AZA and other zoological institutions to recommend changes to state law and local ordinances....we need to get them (I guess I am one of "them") behind "us". Thankfully, there are some wonderful zoological institutions who have an open mind and hopefully, they can get into the mix to see if they can have some affect on their constituents. Apathy will be our ultimate undoing as most folks in the herp field are just plain apathetic when it comes to fightihg for our rights (now speaking as a hobbyist, not professional). We all rely on "the other person" to fight our battles instead of taking the time to ban together and see what can be done. Various herpetological societies should be spending more time, energy and effort in looking into this. A regional and national group could easily be formed by taking representatives of the various herp societies that exist around the U.S. You could use such venues as the IHS as places to meet to discuss these things. In the end, I do hope that the hobby can be saved...the hobby includes those who keep ANY reptile because there are now counties in the U.S. who have banned ANY reptile to be kept as a pet; even a leopard gecko! Ironically, this is a multi billion dollar industry and there's no reason why some of these folks with the brains of the business can come together and form some consistent message and strategy to protect what we still have (or, broaden the rights of people in certain states who have limiting regulations). And last, no one is an expert here but there are people that due to the time that they have been in the hobby, or, contributed to the hobby, or, those who have done this professionally and have established, themselves, well, I'll just say that we shouldn't downplay the importance of their participation in forums like this. I guarantee you that if this forum was simply a place for Romper Room aged people to rant and rave, it wouldn't be very successful and from recent forum spats, you can see what I mean (and this includes older people who act like a baby right out of the womb). And I agree in that it should be fun to come here, interact with other people, voice opinions and have deep discussions in a professional manner (which means it's okay to disagree with each other!). But, there does become a certain lack of maturity that becomes evident and it would be nice to see this become a more open forum to have interesting and engaging discussions w/out drawing the weapons and taking aim (I'll include myself). Cheers, Rob Carmichael, Curator (BUT BY NO MEANS AN EXPERT!) The Wildlife Discovery Center

RE: Everyone join in !	Reply
by hoyta on November 21, 2006	Mail this to a friend!
errrrr... i'm getting sick of hearing how you have 20 years experience in this carmicheal! good for you- most of us do not have that experience. most of us have alot, but can't back it up with 20 years. as for what sal said, you are one of the main ones that comes in here and flames people. i understand it to a point, but come on... this isn't a personel attack, either. Sal, i joined ncark a little while back, and am glad i did now. i would always pass andrew at the shows, and think that it wasn't that important. i thought "why would i spend 30.00 on a membership, when i could buy this "blank"?! anyways, its nice to have people who actually do something about this, instaed of sitting in the background watching others (i myself am guilty of this!)

RE: Everyone join in !	Reply
by hoyta on November 21, 2006	Mail this to a friend!
oh yeah- rob- like i said, that wasn't personel... i've been on this site since 2000, and agree that the maturity levels should be higher. i still consider myself a "noob" when it comes to hots, and take any GOOD advice i can get. lets all work together to make this site a little more fun to come to! oh yeah, sorry for hijacking the thread... rob, if you;d like to discuss this further, my email is aircrew82@yahoo.com thanks!-adam

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