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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by Chance on November 14, 2007
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No venomous snake is worth $2,000? I'd have to make the argument that just about any of the mainland Aussie elapids, cbb Azemiops, B. insularis (?), and some of the other truly obscure Asian and African viperids should easily be "worth" that. Not to mention, high price tags can occasionally keep them out of the hands of those who don't need them.
-Chance
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by LarryDFishel on November 14, 2007
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You guys are blowing this all out of proportion!
He's asking $2,000 for a PAIR. That's only $1,000 per snake after all. :)
I think we have one of these at the refuge, I wonder if he'll give us $800 for it...
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by Cro on November 14, 2007
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This "morph" thing has gotten out of hand. Now days, folks see a light copperhead or a slightly different looking cottonmouth, and the want to call it a "pastel" or a "cottonhead."
Many of us who have been working with snakes for years have seen hundreds of variations in snakes, just as Doug stated.
Years ago when I used to import ball pytons for the pet shop trade, we would get in some wierd ones with abbarent colors and patterns. And we would say, "hey, look at this weird looking ball python," and would still sell it at the same price.
Now days, that same snake would be "labled" some kind of freaky morph, and demand a high price.
Snakes are variable. Some are gonna look different from others. Just look at humans, and see all the differences between them.
Do we label our human friends "morphs" just because one has a larger nose, or curly hair, or a light complexion ??????
The house of cards that is the designer ball python, and other morph snakes will come falling down eventually. And folks who have paid exorbidant prices for the freeky looking snakes will get burnt..........
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by agkistrodude on November 14, 2007
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Wow! I've got $8,000 worth of copperheads in my hotroom! I told my wife this hobby would pay off someday! LOL
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by JSargent on November 14, 2007
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i am the guy with the pastel copperheads...i proved them genetic this year when i produced the 7 babies...the parents were bought as patternless belly coppers found together in texas...knowing how there are several marked co-doms in balls i purchased this pair...upon the babies being born 2 were light with patternless bellies and 5 looked brite pink with patternless bellies...so i proved they WERE genetic and that there does seem to be a super form...know since this was the first year i produced them and have not been able to breed the super pink ones back together, there is no telling what they may produce...maybe just more super pink ones, but i have not seen copperheads this nice since my true hypos were born back in 04"...i too have seen hundreds of copperheads and have made many trips going to see so called hypos...these are nicer than any i have ever seen in anyones collection...and remember "price high" you can never go up, just down and honestly i don't care if i don't sell any...in two yeas when they're big and brite pink people will be beggin for em, just like they do when they finally get to see my hypo....and remember i have stripes,spotted,and hypermels to breed into this line...next year i hope to breed my pastel's father(the patternless belly) to a texas southern that doesn't have the patternless belly to see if it works as a co-dom...$1000 for a new morph is not a bad price,ecspecially since there are so few for copperheads...and this one is a possible co-dom...as for you guys giving away hypos and pastels...that reminds me of the carolina boy who gave an albino copperhead away for $10 as a normal...guess he didn't know there was a t+ albino...learn genetics....i recently saw an axantic eastern diamondback sold as a normal...i would love to run into some of you folks who either are color blind or too stubborn to realize what you got and it's breeding potential...axantic x albino= snow....pastel x albino= sunglow...now until you see my babies in person keep your opinions to your self...if you have some offer em for $20 if you want...i spent many years breeding most of the corn morphs and i hope to offer several copper morphs in the near future...heck i've seen corns for a thousand, ya'll give me a break....
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by SERPENTOR on November 15, 2007
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Its alright Jamie, I usually don't acknowledge the haters as they honestly believe they know it all so you're wasting your time. Intelligent people understand that they don't know everything and when a person runs his/her mouth about things they "don't get" (i.e. when someone is asking 2K for a pr. of Copperheads), it only reinforces the fact that they are ignorant and do not understand. The first thing to understand is that if you own the snakes, you can ask whatever amount you want to ask for them. You're not twisting someone's arm saying, "You have to buy these" - it is an option. If you find it a worthwhile venture, so be it. If not, who are you to judge??!! Like we want to listen to some whiner cause he likes the animals but doesn't want to pay the asking price. I was in Columbia when the "Pastels" were on display. After seeing them in person (and therefore, making an educated observation), there were many people raving about how incredibly nice (& different) they were. Not one person stated they were "just normals" & no one said, "I have one of those on my table, I'll show it to you." You know why? 'Cause they are not typical normals, just people talking internet crap. This leads me to my second point that some people don't really understand. Does this mean there are not more of these out there somewhere? No. There are very few mutations that WERE NOT originally found in the wild - some can still be found in the wild - esp. animals that are not visually far off from a wild-type (i.e. Hypos & Anerys). Genetic mutations are typically the product of inbreeding - possibly from many generations of inbreeding. This process also creates different taxa (species, sub-species, etc.). This inbreeding usually occurs as animals are isolated by geographic barriers (waterways, mountains, canyons, etc.). Just because it is not solid white or a pink eyed albino doesn't mean its not a morph that can't be reproduced through selective breeding. Are Anery. Corns not morphs because there is a wild population found in FL? Anery EDBs not a morph because they pop up on occasion in FL? Albino WDBs not a morph because they have been popping up in the Dallas/Houston area since the 50s? The real question is, "if you have them, are you intelligent enough to implement them into a breeding program"? Just how desirable it is depends on who you ask & I don't think anyone said, "Hey Rob, what do you think of this?". I don't believe Jamie or myself could give two squats about what you think. I've read your posts & your negativity and bad mouthing doesn't impress me one bit. Neither does your employment status. All this hater logic (= jealousy) reminds me of when I first started breeding for Axanthic (Silver & Black) Ball Pythons in the mid 90's. Ever since then (& it still amuses me that I still hear it on occasion), I get these "know it all", ol' timers that say we just call those (axanthics) ugly ones & usually sold them for less than the normals. They say the same thing about Hypos, "those are just pretty ones. We've had tons of those - we just got rid of them." Well if the Axanthics started off at $10,000/ea. in '96 and its 2007 and they are still gettin' $1,000 - $1,500/ea., who is the fool. The people who gave them away or the people paying good money for them who have mixed them up w/ other mutations to produce completely man-made morphs that sell in the tens of thousands of dollars?? It doesn't take a very high I.Q. to figure that one out....or does it???? Because I always feel like saying "& you are so proud of this that you are telling me this story so I can be impressed that you obviously let something great slip through your hands without seeing the value of it?" My Axanthics made the first Snowball in 2001 and nobody was laughing then. I personally can't wait to see the Pastels mixed with the Anery. Spotteds, Hypos, & Stripes so good luck to ya Jamie & let the haters hate, cuz that's about all that they're good for ~ talkin' crap. Any press is good press so let them talk it up.
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by SERPENTOR on November 15, 2007
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Almost forgot, Aberrants (& any name for that matter as "breeders" make all that stuff up) can be given to anything one finds unusual. Aberrant Honduran Milksnakes are genetic as are Aberrant EDBs. Also, a "Cottonhead" is not just a pretty Copperhead, it is a hybrid between a Copperhead & a Cottonmouth. I'm not into hybrids myself but I don't feel it is my place to judge those that are so I simply do not purchase these animals. I take pride that this is what seperates me from whiney lttle haters.
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by tj on November 15, 2007
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"What made me laugh was that the snake was nothing but a normal albeit nicely colored southern copperhead and this breeder calls it a "pastel"...are there really that many idiots out there who fall for this stuff? $50K balls, $2k copperheads, what's next?"
There has been "hypos" and "pastels" that have been changing hands countless times. So the answer is, yes there are idiots that will pay the price for a light phased southern copperhead deemed "pastel" or "hypo".
However, if someone wants to pay the money for the name, then more power to the seller. It's no different than someone tacking on a few hundred for a possible 66% triple het for albino with blue eyes, abberant, possible leusistic, het for silly, nutty stripes.
On a side note. Chance, the last time I saw azemiops for sale they were going for $500 and I did see insularis....3 or 4 years ago, for an astounding $25000. Neither were pastels, though.
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by Atrox788 on November 15, 2007
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JSargent,
I did not know that a patternless belly was worthy of calling them pastels. I also did not think a patternless belly was that big of the deal. I have an A.c.moaksen that has 75 percent of its belly patternless. Does that means i have a new crazy morph or that one day I can have a patternless belly copperhead too through selective breeding that I can charge out the wazoo? Its a pretty nice northerm, lots of red and pink in it. maybe I can get some loot for it too!
As for the high pinks, I have seen plenty of wild inter grade contortix/mokasen in NC which were very close in color to yours (though its rare since mokasen influence is pretty strong over most of the state) and plenty pure contortix from SC which rivaled yours. I have seen some selectively captive bred specimens which were much nicer IMO.
I am not taking away from the fact that those copperheads are nice at all but they are not what your making them out to be. Your patternless belly debate is pointless to me. Your not calling them patternless belly, your calling them pastels. Who the heck cares if their bellies are patternless? Last time I checked copperheads dont lay on their backs that often.
This is not a question of genetics or weather the trait is passable. Its pretty obvious to even the most lay of people (that would be me) that if you breed two pretty snakes together chances are that you will get pretty, similar babies. I just think way too many people throw on elaborate names to try and make their animals out to be godly when they are simply nice specimens.
Everyone debating them has said they have seen similar animals in the past. You haven't said anything to back up your name "Pastel" or even describe it aside from saying its high pink. Your saying that its a morph because they look nice and that all the babies had patternless bellies and looked nice. I highly suggest you look for copperheads in SC and GA. It is quite common to find A.c.contotrix that are an amazing pink or "Pastel" as you call it.
I do agree with one thing you said. 1k on a copperhead if were indeed a new morph would be reasonable. I only say that because there is more of a market for copperheads since they are considered more of a starter hot. The guys with the crazy copperheads shown at the SC show could get away with since their animals are indeed a new morph and not just a nice specimen. Those snake were very, very, very unique.
Chance,
Aside from impulse buyers and idiots who have no business with hots there are not many hot keepers that I know who would be willing to pay thousands of dollars for rare Oz stuff. Imagine getting in a pair of O.microlepidus. You pay out the cloaca for them and breed them. then you try to sell the babies for a god awful price. Considering teh horrendous danger potential and lack of a good supply of AV your buyers market will be very low. Those who are prepared
and knowledgeable enough to keep them will know that your not going to be able to turn them over and will wait untill you are forced to drop your price or wait untill you sell them to somone else who try to turn them over. It happens all the time with rare, dangerous stuff. rare non vens are another story because the target market is so huge in comparison and many people want the chance to be the first one. At least thats how I see it. I always laugh when people get CB taipans, black mambas etc and ask 500 plus for them,. A month later they are down to 350 and sometimes even lower. Oh and I have seen fea's vipers in the past for a whopping 250 bucks a peice! LOL (granted the horribly high mortality rate definitely has something to do with the drastically reduced price).
BTW, I have a green, completely patternless Bothrechis schelgili. None of the main eyelash folks have ever seen one before. new morph, get it now and be the first! 2k and its yours!!
Serious inquires only LOL
Jeremy
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by JSargent on November 15, 2007
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Atrox, I live in SC...in myrtle beach and as i said i have caught hundreds of copperheads...i have also drove all over the state checking out supposed hypos...and none looked like these...the patternless belly was something i noticed that was different about these snakes...and upon breeding them produced a super form...now i called them pastels because like balls and boas, the pastels are lighter and are co-doms with a super form, that is why i gave them the name...i proved them genetic and if you had come to the columbia show you could have seen them personally...VA is not that far away...true the carolinas due produce some beautiful pink specimens(i have a nice pair held back)but they don't compare to these little hypo pink looking animals...and i don't know of too many brite pink coppers coming out of texas...the texas southerns i've seen have all been light tans...even the hypo texas micheal had a couple years back didn't show any sign of pink(and i saw that animal in person).......
i tell ya what, you make the trip to columbia next year and you can all apologize in person!!!!!!!
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