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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by Chance on November 15, 2007
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TJ and Jeremy,
Though I hate to detract from the main topic of the thread, I was simply trying to point out that, to me anyway, there are some non-morph venomous snakes out there that are worth $2,000+. Yes, Azemiops have popped up from time to time relatively cheaply, but as you noted Jeremy they have a horrendously high mortality rate. I can imagine cbb well established animals would demand quite more.
As for the Aussie animals, I'm basing my judgement on other mainland, hard-to-find Aussie herps like lace monitors, perenties, shingle-back skinks, etc. No, none of those animals very dangerous (well, maybe the large goannas), but there is a demand, and thus the price on them stays high. Last time I saw Pseudechis colletti, it sold for $2,000 pretty quickly - and unfortunately not to my collection. Would I have bought it for that? You bet your arse. Call me stupid for that if you want, but value is in the eye of the beholder, and had I the cash I'd be more than happy to pay $2k each for colletti, porphyriacus, Notechis sp., etc.
Anyway, this is a never-ending debate, because it's all about personal taste. Many here on this thread find (or act like they find) no value in these probable mutation copperheads. Fine, big deal, don't buy them. But to start a thread like this trying to debunk the work Mr. Sargent put into this project is...well, insulting to the person with the animals to say the least.
-Chance
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by Atrox788 on November 15, 2007
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Jsargent,
I was at the SC show and I did see your copperheads! LOL Again, pretty but nothing more then a nice, hi pink copperheads IMO.
I will tell you what. If you produce Leusistic, melanilisticm, albino or piebalds (or somthing comparable in its oddity/rarity) for the babies you produced this year I will come down a apologize in person. Untill then though I stand by what I said.
Chance,
You are comparing non vens to vens. Its hard to do that because our market is much smaller. your right, its worth what somone is willing to pay. Obviously im not willing to pay much lol.
Jeremy
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by FLVenom911 on November 15, 2007
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I've seen Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix from Kistachie National Forest in Louisiana that look identical. They also have the patternless bellies that JSargent stated. Either way, who cares.
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by Rob_Carmichael on November 15, 2007
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My original post sure took a few twist and turns. There are PLENTY of herps worth $1K, $2K, and on and on (I'm guilty of paying more than that). As others have said, if someone has the money to blow, it's their money and their perogative to do as they wish with that money. I just find it odd that normally colored morphs are going for such high prices (which, in a weird way, sounds great to me as I am not a big fan of all of the morphs). I equally laugh out loud when I read the list of ball python morphs now on the market....I wonder if there are any 100% normals out there any more:-) Once again, it was just an observation I wanted to share. As far as Jamie Sargent goes, I'm sure it's a great project and its great to see southern copperheads getting their due; i just wonder who would actually pay that price for one.
And for those who posted with nothing but your first name and a pretend screen name without completing your profiles, your comments are just falling on deaf ears and add nothing to the conversation.
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by SERPENTOR on November 15, 2007
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"I did not know that a patternless belly was worthy of calling them pastels."
If that is the case, accusing someone of ripping people off & slapping fancy names on stuff is not the appropriate way of asking "why call it a Pastel?". They could've been called the "Your Mom's" morph - "the Your Mom's Copperhead". Why, because the person who owns them & breeds them out says so. If everyone else doesn't think the name is appropriate, the name will be changed as more people market them. This happened w/ the "Licorice Stick" Black Ratsnakes- changed to "White-sided" and the "Hypo" WDBs - changed to "Pastels" which describes the high pink animals descended from certain NM/AZ locales as the Black & White coon tails determined that Hypo was not correct. I didn't realize you (atrox 788) owned the Pastel patent & someone had to clear it through you before calling them Pastels. They were actually coined Pastels because the are lacking the melanin (dark pigment) that defines the pattern. This is turn, makes them very light & "pastel" like. They also have a patternless belly which is indicative of a poss. genetic mutation esp. when the animal is "odd" in appearance. In Ball Pythons, these types (odd patterning & clear bellies) of animals can produce something very unusual when bred together. The first "Pastel" specimens were produced in '06 from a gravid SC female. While there were a dozen different litters produced from gravid females collected by Sargent, these were different. No name was given at this time but the animals were held back & still remain different but are more tan & lack the orange (not pink) colouration of the TX animals produced this year - we believe this to be the same trait. The banding on the TX animals are also thinner & usually does not connect over the back giving the pattern less of an hour glass look.
"I also did not think a patternless belly was that big of the deal."
See above
"I have an A.c.moaksen that has 75 percent of its belly patternless. Does that means i have a new crazy morph or that one day I can have a patternless belly copperhead too through selective breeding that I can charge out the wazoo? Its a pretty nice northerm, lots of red and pink in it. maybe I can get some loot for it too!"
Yes, you can charge whatever you want as it is your animal. Unless you feel you need permission from someone.? If it is odd, we would've been interested in buying it (poss. for "big loot") that is, if you wouldn't have offended us w/ condescending remarks.
"As for the high pinks, I have seen plenty of wild inter grade contortix/mokasen in NC which were very close in color to yours (though its rare since mokasen influence is pretty strong over most of the state) and plenty pure contortix from SC which rivaled yours. I have seen some selectively captive bred specimens which were much nicer IMO."
As Jamie stated, we have seen tons of SC high pinks (some real screamers) & these are nothing like those.
"I am not taking away from the fact that those copperheads are nice at all but they are not what your making them out to be."
Yes, you are because you are apperantly the expert on what makes a Pastel.
"Everyone debating them has said they have seen similar animals in the past. You haven't said anything to back up your name "Pastel" or even describe it aside from saying its high pink. Your saying that its a morph because they look nice and that all the babies had patternless bellies and looked nice. I highly suggest you look for copperheads in SC and GA. It is quite common to find A.c.contotrix that are an amazing pink or "Pastel" as you call it."
They all say they have them but when it comes to putting up or shutting up, they don't do either. And they are lacking the dark pigment that defines the patterning, clear bellies & orange, not (just) pink.
"The guys with the crazy copperheads shown at the SC show could get away with since their animals are indeed a new morph and not just a nice specimen. Those snake were very, very, very unique."
They (I call them Anery. Spotteds.....cuz I can - you can call them what you want) are crazy but not unheard of (as I'm sure there are more Pastels out there too), as there is one posted on this very sight (in the morph photo album) from years back. I drove from OH to SC to photgraph that animal & did see it in person. It did come from the same guy that collected Dalas' animal but no one can seem to track down Danny Lindsey (anyone know where this guy went?) or that animal. Oddly enough (now that you mention it), another Anery Spotted was caught by a different person in the same area & was acquired by a friend of mine for $50 in Hamburg years back - it never made it to a table. Jamie bought that animal from him at the past Col. show for $1,000 and I feel he got a great deal considering that he can breed it to his male Hypo. or a Pastel male to make Dbl. Hets. for a "Ghost Spotted" mutation.
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by JSargent on November 15, 2007
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Jeremy, you are entitled to your opinion...these animals were not offered with the intent of them going to the lay herper...i offered them as an oppertunity to other copperhead breeders and lovers...since this was the first year the parents were large enough to breed it is a ground level project...it will take a few years to get the female pinks large enough to breed and i was offering someone else this chance...they were also offered in case someone else had secret projects in the works and would like something different to add and get new blood...i have at least six copper morphs i'm working on and would love to meet others working to make coppers more interesting than just a good "starter hot"...heck before the "morph" ball craze, no one cared about balls other than as good "stater" snakes...i like copperheads and believe these would be nice with some of the other copper morphs..ie the spotted or striped...i would love to see a pink spotted rather than the usual grey and blacks...and i just may produce a few in a few years....
That's it i stated my case and i'm done...jamie
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by jared on November 15, 2007
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WOW I knew that post would HEAT up. Well said points on both sides, I just wanted to chime in on No herps being worth 1 to 2K, I thought I would shoot a list of some hot's' that are
Willirdi ssp
Bushmaster ssp
Komodo Dragons
Gilas and beadeds
B.taeinata
B.bicolor
B.a.somalica
B.corunuta
B.parvicoula
C.abyssus
Tree cobras
Micruvus ssp
Bungarus ssp
Feas Vipers
Mangshangs
King cobras (adults)
etc etc
and ANY albino and leucistic morphs will fetch that price (Imagine Albino gloyds cantils, blackhead bushmasters, and Golds tree cobras). Thats all I wanted to say, and personally some of those animals are worth the price tag and the potential years of work put into breeding that out. Also for the record I think there is nothing more beautiful than natures original design, but man can add some interesting twists, as he has with EVERYTHING on the planet (at least that he could get his hands on). Wow, nice debate guys genetics always gets this forum pumping,
Jared Watts
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by jared on November 15, 2007
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Also as for pattern variation, here s a nice one. Anyone ever see eastern coral snakes in Wilmington NC? the locality down there has specimens with patternless bellies, and milk snake spotted sockheads (bands dont reach around),and what about the Keys specimens? maybe this is why I like my locality animals so much....
Jared
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by MoccasinMan on November 15, 2007
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I, like Jared, enjoy maintaining pure locality specimens. I have several locality projects that I would never compromise. I also enjoy the genetic morphs. The work, time, patience, and understanding of genetics can be extremely rewarding when new projects are proven out. I think it is foolish to discount anothers hard work just because of lack of understanding... or disinterest. Morphs are not for everyone... explain your love of venomous to a lay person... they will never get it... but does that mean that an interest in venomous lacks legitamacy? To each his own... It is all good!
Andrew
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RE: $2K for a "pastel" southern copperhe
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by tj on November 15, 2007
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Jeremy, you mentioned a few of my favorites on that list. Willardi are some of my top snakes, but you just don't see many of them and don't know if they are legal when you do. I did see a few awhile back that were quite abit cheaper than the $1000.
B.taeniata are awesome snakes as well. There was breeder from Florida that had a few for sale about 4 years ago. The price was right on the money, but like an idiot, I didn't pick them up. I think, at the time, I was abit timid of a 7 foot, bothrops-like tree viper, with inch plus long fangs.
I'd have to add b. pulcher, fonsecai, and cotiara to that list of snakes. But they are snakes that you never see for sale.
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