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RE: Venomous Snakes
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by pdk9Roper on August 8, 2008
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I hope that you are just kidding, the fact that you are asking about ether snake tells me that you don't have enough experience or knowledge to keep such a snake. I hope that you will think about this before you decide to get "any venomous snake" and get with an experienced keeper before you decide to get a snake of this type. You need to "get some experience" with hot's before you decide to move up to such a snake of ether type. I would think that you should get a banded water snake (non-venomous) before you get such a deadly snake and keep it for a year and document each time you get tagged and gain some experience before you move up to this type snake. Remember what you do will effect the rest of us. I hope you will think this through before you get any hot's. I don't want you to get bit or make people think that this is what venomous keeping is like. Start with a Copperhead first if you must start with a hot. I wish you would first get with an experienced keeper and learn the ropes before you get any hot's. Please thank about this!!! Safty can not be stressed enough. There are people out there that love to hear about people like you and get legislation in place that effect the rest of us. Thank about this, and be smart, start slow and work up, get with someone that you can trust and knows about keeping hot's and learn all that you can first, before you get any hot's.
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RE: Venomous Snakes
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by codeman on August 8, 2008
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well....iluvenom what would you call it? If you look at his email address it would suggest that he is only 10 years old. So yes, I would call it a question of curiosity.
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RE: Venomous Snakes
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by Cro on August 8, 2008
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Nicolas, as you can see from the response, people here believe very strongly that before someone keeps venomous snakes, that they should learn safety from a mentor and start with something like a copperhead and work up to more dangerous snakes like gaboon vipers over many years of practice and training.
However, you never said that you wanted to to keep a gaboon viper or rhino viper, you just asked which was easiest to keep. So, it actually is a good question to ask if you are just curious and trying to learn more about snakes.
I think that is why you asked the question, because you want ot learn more about venomous snakes. And I think that you are probably 10 years old, based on your profile. We like getting questions here from young Herpetologists who are trying to learn.
Do not let all of the negative responses scare you from asking more questions about snakes here. Folks made the assumption that you were wanting to keep gaboon vipers or rhino vipers as a first venomous snake. I think that they jumped the gun a bit, without knowing anything about you, or about your age.
In the future, when you ask questions, you might want to remind people that you are just trying to learn, and that you are not wanting to go out and buy a gaboon viper to keep. That way, people will be more able to help with your questions. Don't let them scare you off, as this is a very good forum, with a lot of very good people who can answer your questions about snakes.
Hope this helps.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Venomous Snakes
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by LordViperTX on August 8, 2008
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Which is better for someone just getting into pyrotechnics?
Thermite plasma or nitroglycerin?
What is better for a new motorcyclist?
Canyon-jumping or a jet-powered drag bike?
What is better for someone just getting into piloting?
An F-16 or a Space Shuttle?
OMG
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RE: Venomous Snakes
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by FSB on August 8, 2008
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I think that it's completely understandable how the recent accumulation of horror stories in the press might have put the venomous-keeping community on edge. I don't think it at all obvious that the question was being asked out of simple curiosity, as there are ten year olds with indulgent, aloof, ignorant or otherwise disengaged parents who have the resources and desire to purchase snakes like this, so I can understand people wanting to err on the side of caution. The problem lies with the phrase "for a beginner?" That makes it almost sound like a bad joke, as in "Which violin concerto is better for a beginner - the Brahms or Beethoven?" The word "beginner" simply doesn't belong in the same breath with either one.
A better way to phrase a simply curious, rhetorical question would have been more like: "Which is the easier snake to keep?" to which one might answer that they are both about the same in terms of husbandy requirements, which isn't surprising since they are closely related snakes that live in similar habitats. Gaboons obviously grow much larger, which is the main reason they can be more problematic to keep than rhinos, but both thrive at the same humidity (60-80%) and temperatures (around 78F)and on the same kinds of food and substrates.
If it weren't necessay to occassionally move them, as from their cage into a soaking container, Gaboons would be rather simple to keep, but for snakes that hardly ever move, they can make some surprising moves! They can twitch or twist very suddenly, or go completely rigid like a board, and there is a great risk of these very heavy snakes injuring themselves if they are not handled with extreme care and the proper-sized hooks. In their natural state, these huge vipers rarely, if ever, leave the ground, so riding a hook is a very unnatural, uncomfortable and potentially dangerous thing for them to do.
I still say a blood python is a great substitute for a Gaboon: they have the same impressive girth, an attractive pattern and coloration (including the distinctive "leaf-stem" stripe down the center of the head), and their eyes even do that same little "click" thing when they move. And, like Gaboons, they can strike straight up from a quiet resting position, and they have very long teeth, so watch it!
Gaboon vipers are like the Hermann Goerings of the snake world: gaudy, pompous, fat and dangerous.
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RE: Venomous Snakes
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by theemojohnm on August 8, 2008
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I agree with John, and thats what I was implying in my post.
I try not to discourage anyone from the hobby. It is simply a safety concern as he seems young and probably doesnt know how to properly care for the animal either.
Now I know I am just assuming, as he may have researched hubandry care sheets etc. But as I was the first to point out, the way the question was worded WORRIED THE HELL OUT OF ME!
If someone asks that question it means that they should not keep any venomous animal for at least a few years.
I am kind of in between both parties here, as I myself am very young compared to many of you. The first venomous snake I kept was a Northern Copperhead I caught when I was 6 or 7! I now realize this was a HUGE mistake. I started to keep a lot of the non-native, exotic species when I was only 11 ! THANK GOD I HAVE NEVER HAD A BAD ACCIDENT! It was uterly stupid, but there were certain things I didnt quite grasp at that age.
I can assuredly say that I am the most intellectually mature individual I have ever met at my age, and even though for the most part now, I have the experience to keep the species I do. However, there are still MANY elapids I refuse to work with because I know I dont have that experience. I never had a formal mentor or any kind of training. I had to "learn on my own". That copperhead 10 years ago was just another PA snake that I found outside which was fair game for my hook (stick at the time after I realized what it was). Even still, I too have been "bashed" on a few of the forums, with many older folks telling me I am too young to keep and safely interact with the animals that I do.
I can understand the 10, 11 year old captivated by the poorly made tv shows, wanting to keep venomous animals, because I was at the stage once. My love for venomous snakes never died, but now I know what an idiot I was back then, and so does my mom.
This is a great hobby! But, I have been there and can for certain state that you really should find a mentor and work from there.
Its just that, that question is comparable to a ten year old asking "what is a better gun for a beginner, an Ak47 or an M16 ?".....
Not only are they potentially dangerous animals, but it only takes one or two mishaps to ban it for the rest of us. this hobby is somthing I hold very close to my heart, and if a ban was ever put into place where I live, I honestly do not know what I'd do..
~John.
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RE: Venomous Snakes
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by FSB on August 9, 2008
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I want to point out that in my first post I made it clear that it is in no way my intention to discourage any young person's interest in herpetology, as I was once one myself, and collected my first rattlesnake (Crotalus oreganus helleri) on a family trip to California at age 12. I also maintained copperheads and cottonmouths in a little shed behind our garage, but I had watched my much-older brother handle venomous snakes all my life and knew that I was actually much more capable and knowledgeable about them than he... (he had terrible luck maintaining reptiles, and many of his died while mine always thrived, which has unfortunately been a point of fraternal jealousy and resentment. It is really weird to have a jealous older brother!).
There is no set age at which working with venomous snakes becomes safe or "okay," but as my more sympathetic father gently put it, "at least wait until you're 18 so I won't be liable."
Some people aren't going to like this, but I detest what video games are doing to children -- turning them into vacant, staring, unresponsive potatoes who are divorced from reality and the joys of hunting crayfish in the creek, or keeping snakes. One of my primary goals as a lecturer is to reach children before they develop that fear of snakes that is so hard to overcome in adults, and to foster the budding interests of young herpetologists. Reptiles, living and extinct, have an intrinsic attraction for children, and this is a great thing, since an early fascination with reptiles can form a "gateway" to the wider world of the natural sciences, even if herpetology never becomes a career or even a serious hobby. I believe that people who can actually love and respect snakes tend to make far more empathetic, intelligent and better people in general, and better people make it a better world for all.
What bothers me more than the fear of snakes is the hatred of them some people have, as this is nothing but a root form of predjudice: hating something simply for what it looks like, without any knowledge of its true properties.
I instruct lay people that the best way to protect themselves from snakebite outdoors is to overcome their ignorance of snakes (which may be impossible after a certain age). I have tromped happily through some of the world's most swampy, wooded, rocky, and presumably snake-infested areas since childhood, and continue to do so with very little worry of being bitten by a snake. My son was able to easily distinguish a copperhead from a northern watersnake by age 6, and I've never had to worry about him either. He is not passionately interested in reptiles, which is fine, but he definitely has a working knowledge of them.
So no, of course I don't want to discourage the interest of any young person in herpetology, but I certainly don't want them getting themselves killed either -- snakes need all the friends they can get, and venomous ones worst of all. And of course I know that to many, myself included, venomous snakes can be the most fascinating and alluring of all animals, for a varety of reasons.
However, there is a responsibility beyond oneself that goes along with the husbandry of these very special and magnificently gifted animals which have the power to kill much larger animals with just a mere scratch. Keeping venomous snakes is always a risky endeavor for people of any age, but unlike, say using cocaine, your risky behavior can have a huge impact on people beyond yourself or your own family. This is probably a seriously flawed analogy, but what I mean to say is that the abuse of cocaine is not going to put any "reputable drug addicts" in a bad light.
I am a firm believer in the power of devoted, serious amateurs to add to the overall body of human knowledge in whatever field, and that it is important that venomous snakes be kept and studied by as many responsible people as have the knowledge, will and ability to do so without endangering themselves or their communities. With the possible exception of places like Hawaii, most any community can benefit enormously from the presence of a venomous snake expert who is willing to share his or her expertise, just as an explosives expert who knows how to defuse a bomb can really come in handy when you need one!
I know that as an unofficial "first responder" to the frequent 911 snake calls in my county, I have saved the EMS system thousands of dollars each time I have retrieved a baby black rat snake from someone's house. It's ALWAYS a black rat snake if it's in someone's house, but if it's ever (I can only wish!) a venomous species, I can easily handle that too.
Of course, if someone's actually been bitten, that's a whole different matter, but so far, of course, that has only occurred on my first call, when the EMS had already responded and a young girl had reportedly been bitten on her toe. I arrived to find the house completely surrounded by emergency vehicles, and the little girl en route to the hospital via ambulance. I quickly located a nine-inch black rat snake behind a bookcase in the cluttered bedroom and they were able to radio the ambulance and call it off, saving the county (and the family) even more thousands of dollars.
I have a great deal of admiration for our brave volunteer firefighters who won't hesitate to run into a flaming building, but I have to say, just between us, that I find it a bit amusing when they are reluctant to enter a house with a baby black rat snake inside!
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RE: Venomous Snakes
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by Cro on August 9, 2008
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When Nicolas first posted his question, we should have asked him what his age was, and what his experience with reptiles was, and what his intent was. We should have asked him to fill in more of his profile.
After that, we should have answered his questions.
He has not posted again.
It would be ashamed if a young herper was scared from this site just because he did not "word" his post in the most clear way as to his intentions.
The policy of the site is that profiles should be filled in, as completely as possible. When someone asks a question, try to hold off answering it and ask them in a nice way to fill in the profile first, then answer the question.
It is always better to answer someone when you know a bit more about the age, and experience level of the poster.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: Venomous Snakes
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by iLuVeNoM on August 9, 2008
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I notice this forum has some extremely sensitive people based on some of these comments, not only replying to this one but lots of others too. Chill out herps the dude asked a question. Curious or serious, it's bottom-line an amusing question.
There's ways to be tactful and address both assumptions (because we are only assuming he/she is curious or serious right folks?). I would dig to another forum too if I seen some of these responses and I was only 10.
"But we are dealing with serious animals here!" So, maybe this hobby isn't for you then, choose another. But lighten up!
And I'd call it a serious question, not a curious one.
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