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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by pictigaster1 on November 10, 2009
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A mono copperhead antivenom would be a good thing as that is the number one bite in the us.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Cro on November 10, 2009
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It is only fairly recently, with new ways of analyzing venom components, that the often huge difference between venom within one species of snake became well known.
Before that, folks assumed that a EDB was a EDB, or a Mojave Rattlesnake was a Mojave rattlesnake, and had little interest in collecting them from all over their range, to make sure that all of the various venom differences were represented.
The venom producers use large snakes, like Eastern and Western Diamonbacked Rattlesnakes, and Cottonmouths, as those snakes have a large venom yield.
A copperhead or pygmy rattlesnake would have a smaller venom yield, and would require many more snakes and milkings to make a specific antivenin, or, to add that venom to a polyvalent antivenom. And that would increase costs and time factors.
However, if the copperheads and pygmy rattlesnakes were from across the range of those snakes, there is little doubt that a specific antivenom would work better than the cross-over protection that is gained from cottonmouth or rattlesnake venom.
Perhaps, some day, antivenin will be grown in a lab, through genetic engineering, and might even take the form of a vaccination, and eliminate the need to milk snakes for venom.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by toddg on November 11, 2009
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Interesting. I never thought of the venom yield as being the reason for the snakes chosen to produce AV. I'd assumed it was more to do with medically significant snakebites. I thought however, that type A venom mojave greens had a rather small venom yield comparatively speaking. If it’s based on venom yields then wouldn’t type A canebrakes be a better choice?
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Cro on November 11, 2009
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Even though both venoms might be type A, they still could have significant differences.
The canebrake form of the timber rattlesnake would have larger venom yields, however, they are much more difficult to collect in numbers, so, would cost much more to obtain. Also, they are very difficult to work with.
On the other hand, there are some western roads where one can find 100 or more mojave or western diamondback rattlesnakes in a single night of road cruising, if the conditions are right. So, in that case, the quantity of mojave rattlesnakes available makes up for the lower venom yield of a individual snake.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by toddg on November 11, 2009
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100 or more mojave and wdbs in a single night! Sir, I live and grew up on some of these "western" raods of which you speak! I can assure you that no such paradise exists!
John, I have one last anoying question for you; if diffucult snakes are a criterium, then why use western diamond backs?
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Cro on November 11, 2009
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Todd, those places do exist !
I can remember nights in West Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona where we stopped counting the rattlesnakes on the road after driving around 100's of them. That was because we were looking for other animals that were far less common.
Others here have seen the same thing. Right place, right conditions, right time. And, even when the conditions are not quite right, there are still plenty of 30 and 40 rattlesnake nights.
If you have not found those roads / conditions yet, keep trying. You have to be there in the right month, at the right moon conditions, at the right temperatures, etc.
As far as using the Western Diamondbacked Rattlesnake, it is because it is abundant, and produces a lot of venom. And, because there are a lot of them, they can be purchased by the venom labs at a good price. And, the behavioral response can be counted on. You will not find that in canebrake rattlesnakes.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by pictigaster1 on November 11, 2009
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I know a mountain where on a full moon not a new moon in july you can catch over 20 trans pecos copperheads 20 blacktails and a dozen other snakes if you are willing to hunt not drive.I know several roads one every time I am on it it is easy to pick up 50 atrox in the 40 miles of road as well as a dozen viridis and I never make the second run too damn many snakes.In september of 04 we saw over 100 babies alone not to mention the 30 we collected over 3 foot and the other 50 that were road kill.These places exist.The key is actually getting out and doing it.Not sitting back and speculateing about it.I also know a canyon where there so many old abandoned houses where atrox den that in march you can catch 200 or 300 if you choose.We just go to see the red ones.Never collecting any.There are in fact a few places left where snakes abound.Yet if you do not know how or where to look you will not find one.
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