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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by venominme on November 9, 2009
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I think biologically, the Bothrops Atrox may provide better cross protection for cottonmouth and copperhead than the moccasin alone because the Bothrops is like the Father of the other two, in the evolution of them. I think there was a real effort with CroFab to make it a strictly North American product, but the evolution and diversion of these venoms don’t understand borders and approval agency politics.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Cro on November 9, 2009
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Todd,
It is not so much a matter of a copperhead or pygmy rattlesnake rarely being fatal, as it is a matter of stopping further damage from the bite.
As you can see from the photos that Scott posted, a coppehead bite can do tremendous tissue damage. These bites are extremely painfull, and can leave residual pain that will last for years.
Instead of counting on cross-over protection, a specific antivenin made from the venom of these animals would probably work much better and faster, and would probably require much less quantity.
It is kind of like the black widow spider bite. It rarely kills anyone, but the pain can be extremely bad. Once antivenin for that bite is given, the symptoms disappear very quickly, and the patient does not have to suffer.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Kingetula on November 9, 2009
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John
Thanks for that Black Widow comment, I have something to research now. How do you milk a black widow lol! Seriously, I'm going to go learn how black widow antivenom is made. (I never really cared or liked spiders so I didn't care either way but now I am curious)
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Kingetula on November 9, 2009
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Let me reword that, I understand it's probably done the same way as snake antivenin but my curiosity is how you get venom out of a spider, I imagine you need many spiders too.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Kingetula on November 9, 2009
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I did find Black Widow but did find this, never knew this is how it was done. Sorry, I really don't care for spiders...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McwjMhyJmQE
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by toddg on November 10, 2009
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John, perhaps I posed the question poorly. Given that the cross-over protection of both crofab and Wyeth ACP are less effective on some other FAR more dangerous North American pit vipers i.e. Crotalus oreganos heleri, should we really be concerned how well the current polyvalent AVs counteract morbidity in less toxic snakes. I just think that given the cost, time, and need that pharmaceutical companies have bigger fish to fry when it comes to producing AVs
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Cro on November 10, 2009
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Todd, you asked "should we really be concerned how well the current polyvalent AVs counteract morbidity in less toxic snakes?"
I would say the answer is YES, it is a very real concern. Anything that can be done to improve a product has value. What you call "less toxic snakes" account for many thousands of bites, compared to the relative few bites from snakes like Crotalus oreganus helleri.
As far as the Wyeth product, it is no longer being made for humans, so, it does not matter anymore.
The poor performance of CroFab has lead the Mexican Bioclon Company to produce Antivipmyn, which has been in clinical trials in this country for several years now.
Bioclon Antivipmyn appears to be a superior product, and does a better job of treating many bites, including those that involve cross-over. And, it costs a whole lot less than the CroFab product.
As far as your concern for the cost to American pharmaceutical companies, they seem to have no desire to improve the product they make. They are making huge profits on it as it is, whether it works well or not. I have no concern at all for their cost, time, or what size fish they choose to fry. I do have a concern that the product they make does not work as well as it was supposed to.
Hopefully, the Bioclon Antivipmyn will be readily available soon in this country.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by toddg on November 10, 2009
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John, first off I don’t know the first thing about making a polyvalent antivenin other than the obvious: collect the venom from the requisite critters, inject said venom in increasing doses into some poor ruminant, draw some blood and prep it for some centrifuge thingy, and VIOLA! You got yourself some moneymaking, lifesaving elixir!
I don’t know, for example, if adding more venoms to the equation will broaden the overall effectiveness on the targeted species and at the same time require higher doses to treat the originally intended species.
I would think that since, as you’ve already stated, copperheads are responsible for more bites in the U.S. than any other snake that SOMEONE would include their venom in a polyvalent thus making it more effective in treating the lesser agkistrodon.
Also I don’t how much pharmaceutical companies are making on AV however, if it’s as lucrative as you say then I’m quite sure that many more of them will be looking to purchase livestock to inoculate and snakes to milk.
On a lighter note, due to the length of this topic, I think I’m starting to develop carpel tunnel because of all the right clicking to read the latest post!
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