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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by AquaHerp on October 30, 2009
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I don't see any validating evidence that self-immunization works on any level.
DH
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by pictigaster1 on October 30, 2009
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It does work on some species that is a true fact but not with all, mambas are easy water cobras are easy .There are no ways to beat necrosis from croats from what I have scene or african naja.This is an area I tried recently and stopped.It is a fact that at least two people can take a full black mamba bite and go to work the next day .Then take a full cape bite the next day and go to work This is a fact a solid documented fact then do a mambe green the next day then go to work All documented...SI works on some species yet it can go bad and death can be the result.I am not saying every one can do it but it has been done and it has been proven.Doug if you are interested in solid proof go to venomcenter .com and review all the posts and read some of the bites as well as the people involver.One better they would be happy to come to your instution and have you personaly watch it in action so you could decide for your self what is real and what is false.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by JHarrison on October 31, 2009
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SI is voodoo science. The risks of SI out weight the benefits. More peer reviewed papers show the dangers then any benefit. The two people you talk of have never been published in a peer reviewed study. One had a paper published on him that at the end the doctor says this is a dangerous and unneeded practice.
As farther as suicide by bite or injection I have reviewed several cases of both. It happens as does some idiot trying to kill a wife or enemy with venom.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by pictigaster1 on October 31, 2009
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Jim I respect your opinion and what you do.It is my wish someone such as your self would study these people.The dangers are indeed there the risk of IgE shock are very great indeed.I also agree this could be celled Voodoo science.Yet I have been following this for a year now and I know with some species it will and does work Do I believe every one should si--NO.Do I believe that more study is needed yes.Bill haast is mentor to us all and he did it for over 50 years.It is my opinion that these people do this to expand human knowledge and should be given the chance to share what they have learned good and bad.To say it does not work at all is ludicris .We would have no antivenom if it was.Useing the same formula as is done with animals has worked on humans.Any argument otherwise is saying the process of makeing antivenom is a farce.As we all know it is not.Bills blood saved people would any one argue that.Human antivenom what a concept, it can be done.Haveing almost died from horse serum makes me wonder and research this subject with an open mind .Haveing as many bites as you have had I would think this would interest you as well.I have had a few bites as well and it is very interesting to me.It would seem this topic is shuned by all or most everyone.The world was once thought to be flat.If people such as your self became involved in this research the findings could be proved or disproved with 100% believeability .I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHY THIS IS SUCH A TABOO SUBJECT.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by JHarrison on October 31, 2009
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SI is dangerous and all peer reviewed studies show that risks out weight the benefits. If it would work then I would have a needle in my arm. Kids read this crap think it is science and listening to these none scientist start SI. The facts are that animals used in antivenom production often have health issues. If an adult wants to hurt themselves then thats up to them. But don't try to call it science when your shooting up in the basement . By the way Haast has been on life support several times did SI save him or the life support. Science just does not back the claims that SI is safe or does what the SI people believe. They need to publish their work in a peer reviewed paper and prove me wrong.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by JHarrison on October 31, 2009
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As far as human antiserum. This was address by researchers in the past and discarded due to risks involved to the donor. Also there is no more proof that Haast blood saved the few people it was used on then that chicken liver helps with snakebite. The person bitten by the krait was on a iron lung(Life Support). We know now that some people will do well just on life support. Also find a doctor today that would risk his job on giving human (untested) blood to a victim. The direction on antivenom should be to make a better product but there is no money in it for companies to do development. There are safer and better ways to make a DNa antivenom but production costs are to high.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Kingetula on October 31, 2009
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I wonder what this kid is doing these days? (Not that we will ever know...)
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by BobH on October 31, 2009
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I think Jim is a little off the point with SIers. There is no reason to assume the human body reacts that differently to venom as compared to horses or sheep. Inject foreign proteins in the body and the body responds by building antibodies. Risks outweighing the benefits would probably hold up for any kind of commercial products or if you were requiring some people to go through the immunization routine. Because there is no money in it is the reason there is no science to back it up. While I will agree there is always risks involved...there are life threatening risks for most people who keep venomous snakes.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by AquaHerp on October 31, 2009
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Actually, I was speaking with a snakebite specialist from Thailand last week. Given the high degree of dry bites from many of these snakes, one has to wonder how these folks are judging the success of thier SI? Is it by simple recovery? Or it it through repeated lab testing? Simply recovering, or having no effect from a snakebite is no measuring stick.
As Jim mentioned, the Doctor from Thailand had statistics on Krait bites whereas folks recovered just as well with being on a ventilator and riding it out as they did with antivenom (and ventilator assist).
I, nor Jim, ever said that we didn't believe it could be done; Simply that there are no real "scientific" publications pointing to this. Hell, I can stick my artm in with a mamba and get a differnt result every time.
DH
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