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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by pictigaster1 on October 31, 2009
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Ok Jim this is what I have to say.You are one of my herp heros some day I hope to meet you you are on my life list.That said that seems to be a biased standpoint on your part.You have built KZ and had to at one time start from very little.A lab in ones basement does not lessen the findings of that person.There are people who have the ability to achieve great things with out a collage degree.Peer review is a wonderful thing to have yet it no more validates ones work than the work its self .The reason for this is based on biased preconceptions of said work.SI is not in its self a science but is part of a larger discipline inmmunology .All I was saying is I would like to see some peer reviews done on this work from a non biased point of view one done with out the consideration of grants or money just to state the facts as they present them selves.Someone in your position could do this with out any one calling it voodoo.In fact it is not voodoo the findings so far are valid good and bad .IF one person can si and take a full bite from say a water cobra then there is salt in those results.I understand you want nothing to do with this and that is ok,.but should we knock those who do.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by pictigaster1 on October 31, 2009
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Doug the answer to your question is they inject a non diluted pure venom LD.This is how .I can give you links to the data if you like let me know and I will .
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by JHarrison on October 31, 2009
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A few points:
First, there *are* peer reviewed studies on SI. It was tried in Japan several decades ago-- that paper is where I get the phrase that the risks outweigh the benefits. It's not my line. The recent Jean-Phillipe Chippaux book, "Snake venoms and envenomations" also addresses SI- I would direct anyone interested in venoms/ bites to read that book anyway. On page 164 he says that the Japanese study showed no significant reduction in mortality or morbidity and so the study was abandoned.
Here is a direct quote: (from pg. 165)
'The main difficulty encountered with vaccination is the delay between the penetration of the antigen and the immune response. In the case of a microbial agent the pathogenic effect is delayed by several hours at least and generally by several days, which leaves time for the antibodies to be mobilized against the intruder. In the case of an envenomation the toxic action is immediate and leaves little time for the immune response and the production of a sufficient quantity of antibodies.'
I have a 'personal' issue with this only because I feel it is dangerous and I don't want young people getting hurt reading about it online and thinking they can magically become immune to snakebite. But I get my information from real scientists. If the SI people want to publish, they should-- the fact that they haven't is quite telling. You are right that everyone starts somewhere- but in this world you need to establish scientific advances by the appropriate methods (ie peer review). The system of review and publishing was established in order to minimize false reporting, skewed science, etc. It is possible to publish when you are not a MD or PhD. I will change my tune if it is proven by appropriate studies, not by one or a handful of people saying they are immune or surviving a few bites.
Second, LD50's are determined using mice. No one really knows what an LD is for a human because we don't test lethal doses on people.
Third, I am not saying that people don't produce antibodies. Sure we do. That, however, is not the point.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by AquaHerp on October 31, 2009
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I do have that book in my office. I'll have to pick it up again and look at it on Monday.
I would be all for being immunized against snakebite. I'll just wait for the science to perfect it..:) Been getting my venom strait from the tap for far too long....it hurts like hell, and thus far....nothing but more medical bills.
DH
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by pictigaster1 on October 31, 2009
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Thank you Jim that was a good post and I do understand your views.It is my hope that some day All of the facts are reviewed by someone such as you or Doug.I agree it is dangerous and a child could get hurt reading the wrong threads .I have hijacked this thread enough and hope the young man who injected himself is doing well.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by AquaHerp on October 31, 2009
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To also further what Jm is saying....One of the great venom gurus of all time "Jim Glenn" published scores of work without a PhD or MD.
The work does not have to be presented by a bona-fide scientist per se...it just has to be able to stand up to scrutiny and logical questioning. Thus "peer reviewed". Grants and funding are nice, but it is not the driving force behind most publications.
For the sake of beating this subject to death, I'll not say any more on the matter.
Happy Halloween all.
DH
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Buzztail1 on October 31, 2009
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For what it's worth, I think this thread is doing remarkably well.
There is nothing wrong with differing opinions. It is the basis upon which science begins.
It is in the presenting of them that people tend to think in absolutes (I am right so you/they must be wrong).
Unfortunately, even with venom, there are no absolutes.
This is not a taboo subject. But it is one that people on both sides are passionate about. I am very happy to see everyone being fairly calm about presenting their ideas on the subject.
Great job, so far.
One point I was very happy to see come up.
There are a lot of younger people who come on this site who still tend to think in absolutes and also tend to think that they are "bullet-proof".
It would be a good disclaimer to point out that all self-immunization practices should be considered medical procedures only conducted under medical supervision.
Just my opinion.
R/
Karl
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Kingetula on October 31, 2009
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I'm curious who has done this, who is thinking of doing it or who would do it if they had someone assisting them?
Or is this a subject that most wont admit to, (Reputation worries or whatever)
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Rob_Carmichael on October 31, 2009
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I just returned from a conference and somewhat brain dead. But, Doug and Jim really hit the main points well and the bottom line is that there just isn't adequate proof that S.I. works in terms of it being a procedure that can hold up to peer review...at least now now. Sure, there are a few "self stickers" who'll go to the grave swearing about the effectiveness of this technique, however, they may end up in the grave because of mis calculating the proper dosage and being careless - there's just nothing scientifically validated that can prove otherwise to my knowledge... just a lot of anecdotes from the self stickers. For me, bite prevention starts with using proper techniques and not taking unnecessary risks, and, having an emergency plan that includes a procedure with the local hospital. Although I don't have the data to back this up, it seems like some of the self stickers I know are also the ones who are getting bit the most or at least exposing themselves to the highest amount of unnecessary risks - what does that tell you?
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by pictigaster1 on October 31, 2009
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Well Rob the ones who are out there proveing this do get bit a bunch.It is interesting to me this whole subject.Nothing will make me drop my guard ever again.I know what it is like to have my finger rot away.What I was trying to find out is simple would someone like Jim or Doug be willing to do a study on this subject and not on me.I tried this and stopped for personal reasons nothing to do with the process.I believe that this works on some species mostly pure nuro species.Any one who has had a bite has some IgG IMMUNITY from the bite itself your body remembers and acts accordingly .They are however not immune at all.They may also become hyper scensitive and IgE SETS IN SHOCK.Jim on his last post very eloquently stated his objections and they are valid.Doug also stated that if this was proven safely he would be first in line.I called on them for one reason they are venom researchers and I have respect for them both.There opinion was important to me as is yours.No si people have chimed in so this thread is dead until some do.Thanks everyone for your input.....Archie
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