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RE: Age restriction.
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by Ptk on March 13, 2010
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Again I am no lawyer but having legal possession and legal ownership I believe are fundamentally two different things. Giving a minor legal ownership of personal property (in this case a venomous snake) would be disastrous. Imagine a parent whom decided to ground or punish their child by taking away their; I-pod, playstation or felt their child too irresponsible for a pet snake. The child could then call the police report the item as stolen and the parents would be arrested and jailed as thieves. If you were bitten by the 12 year old neighbors escaped Mamba, are you going to sue a 12 year old? Are they likely to have insurance?
Mention an "age restriction" in this hobby and it seems inevitable the conversation evolves to a debate over maturity and responsibility. For me, establishing an age limit no matter how arbitrary it may seem isnt so much about the individual but would demonstrate that as a community we are able to police ourselves. That we are mature enough to understand and acknowledge that there are certain risks and are able to put a standard to safe keeping on some level.
An age limit, I think would also take a few bullets out of the AR folks guns. Look how much attention is given to a child attacked by a dog (even when its the family pet). If/when a legally owned venomous snake from a minor were to be envenomated how many calls/laws would that generate? What damage would that do to the hobby as a whole? Could the parents loose their rights for child endangerment? (I am not telling but asking).
From an outside observers position, anytime someone says its ok for children to have its natural to draw the conclusion it must be safe. Giving ownership rights to a minor to own a venomous snake gives the perception that they are "pets". Any child passionate about venomous husbandry will still be passionate at 16, 18, 21, 40 or 100 years old. An age limit for ownership does not prevent an interested child from studying, feeding, cleaning or even handling them. I can not seriously believe this would hamper any future scientists, biologist or herpetologist anymore than not having a drivers license at 7 stopped any Nascar, Indy or Taxi driver from their success.
The only effect I see an age limit for ownership would have is who is "legally" responsible for care and actions of said snake. What you do in the confines of your own home with your own children would still be up to you but the parents would remain on the hook legally.
Perhaps there is a lawyer, judge or law student here that might have some greater insight or understanding than me?
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RE: Age restriction.
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by 23bms on March 25, 2010
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Some years ago I came across an interesting article on risk behavior as it pertains to age. I think I still have it, but it is buried in terabytes of uncatalogued archives. The essence was that most young people don't develop a full appreciation of risk, ie a sober comprehension of the potential consequences of their actions, until well into their mid to late twenties. (Granted, some people never do.) The development of their abilities, knowledge and hormones far out runs the reins of their judgment. The article's emphasis was that the causes were PHYSIOLOGICAL, not social or cultural. I wish I could find it. If I ever do, I'll post a link.
I came to age, which ever it was, during the tumult of the sixties. I had reached 21 (at college) just at the time the drinking age was reduced to 18 because, as it was argued, if you could be drafted to kill, you should be able to drink ... or something of that nature (this was, as I said, the 60's). My reaction was basically that the age reduction ruined the bars. Whatever...
The age reductions were undone because of the lobbying of groups such as MADD and other modern day prohibitionists and professional/governmental nannies. The reversal was, in fact, probably correct, though, as is all too often true, for the wrong reasons.
21 seems to be a rational compromise between youthful desperation to escape authority, biological determinatives and the maintenance of some semblance of social order. The younger people will hate that. I did. But, once they grow up a bit, it may start to make sense, for any number of reasons.
In case anyone missed the point, I think there is a good case for maintaining or establishing a minimum age for possession of venomous at 18 or 21, which one depending on how deluded you are on the maturity of youth (a contradiction in terms if there ever was one).
jrb
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RE: Age restriction.
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by Cro on March 25, 2010
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Jon, I grew up in the same era, and remember when they changed the drinking age, etc.
I also am familiar with the article that you mentioned. The news folks jumped on the physiological basis for the behavior of young folks, and widely stated that young folks brains were not fully developed, etc, and thus the reason for dumb behavior.
Unfortunately, other researchers came out about a year or two after that, and discredited the research.
The new group decided that young folks did not do stupid things because they did not know the risk due to non - fully developed brains, but, that they did indeed understand the risks, but, chose to do stupid things "anyway," due to social and cultural influences afterall, LOL.
So, it could be up in the air a bit.
The fact is though, that folks do dangerous things for various reasons at many different ages. Some folks will never do dangerous things with reptiles, and others will, no matter what the age is.
Overall, arbitrary ages are probably to the benefit of society. For example, I think 16 it too young to drive, but, 17 is probably OK. And, I think 18 is too young to drink, as the senior High kids would be buying alcohol for their younger friends. We still have to take into consideration of parental permission though. If someone in Florida wants a venomous snake license, he can get it at age 18. But, he can be working with venomous snakes long before that, to earn his hours for that permit. Same with driving. You can get a learners license at a younger age, to drive with a mentor. The mentor-ship is the important thing for those early ages.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: Age restriction.
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by pictigaster1 on March 25, 2010
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Well it turns out even the person in charge did not know it is 18 after all for the permit.I went all through the system it is confuseing when there own laws are misunderstood
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RE: Age restriction.
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by SwampY on March 26, 2010
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I've known 14 year olds that I trusted with venomous snakes. I've known 40 year olds that I wouldn't give a garter snake to.
The Twins (Derek and Zack) were 14 when I met them. At that time they already had a collection that would make most zoos jealous. They also had the sense to learn from the right people and were two of the most responsible keepers I've ever had the pleasure to herp with.
Yes, I traded venomous snakes with them.(Just to be on the safe side legally I actually put the snakes in their parents hands.)
I think its a lot more about maturity and training than about chronological age.
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RE: Age restriction.
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by venominme on March 26, 2010
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I think there should be an age restriction and it should basically follow the same age of adult responsibility. That’s whatever age the parent can no longer be held liable for the actions of their child. I have to say I do not believe anyone on this forum has actually met thirteen year olds that they would trust with venomous snakes. I also believe there is a huge difference among the types of venomous snakes too. Keeping a pet rock type like a gaboon might be something that anybody who’s cared for a ball python can do. That doesn’t mean you can keep a forest cobra, does it? I like how Florida does it. They come to your place and check you out. Not just your caging, recordkeeping, protocol and legal requirements are being met. They talk to you. They have the right to deny your permit if they have cause. All the written requirements don’t matter if you are deemed incompetent or a danger to yourself or others, they have an obligation to deny the right to possess venomous reptiles. That takes that maturity thing into account right there on the spot. No jackasses are allowed to get a permit. If some otherwise legal adult is getting a permit so their underage kid can have a venomous pet, as Suze Orman would say, “Denied!”.
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RE: Age restriction.
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by puffadder7 on March 26, 2010
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just shows you how much the TPW knows.... oh yea its 17, when you have to be 18 to buy a venomous reptile! i mean damn!! cmon can someone get their facts straight, or the parent has the right to buy the animal, its just like buying a gun no a minor can not buy a firearm, 21 for handguns, and 18 for rifles, but the parent can buy and be the owner and the minor has the right to shoot the firearm with a parents consent.
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RE: Age restriction.
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by Cro on March 26, 2010
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Norman, you stated: "I have to say I do not believe anyone on this forum has actually met thirteen year olds that they would trust with venomous snakes."
I will have to disagree with that, as I have mentored a couple of kids that age who were great venomous keepers at that age.
In both cases, they had the full permission of their parents, who understood the danger of venomous snakes.
Those kids were not your normal 13 year old kids, they were young scientists / herpetologists. Both were very bright kids, and at that age, were some of the safest reptile keepers I have seen, as they followed the rules that I set for them concerning venomous snakes.
They kept timber rattlesnakes, copperheads, cottonmouths, Indian cobras, and Gabon vipers. And, they kept them safely, in locked rooms, and in locked cages. And they did not bring in their young friends to show off the reptile collections.
Both of those kids grew up to be professionals. One is now a Dr. of Veterinary medicine, and the other is a research scientist working on his PhD.
Kids like that are rare, but, they do exist.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: Age restriction.
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by lanceheads on March 27, 2010
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I know this is slightly off-topic, but at my Shows in San Antonio, our vendors are instructed NOT to sell a venomous snake to someone under 21.
Since my staff have to "walk-out" venomous purchases, I have instructed them to check ID's if they suspect the purchaser is under 21. If so, then the venomous animal in question, is taken back to the vendor for a refund. I will start enforcing this at future shows, as I foolishly relied on "vendors" to ask for ID's in the past. As you know, some vendors only care about making a sale. This has to stop. I would rather "police" my show's, than some governmental agency, change in laws,etc.,"police" it for me (us).
Also, if I suspect a parent is making a venomous purchase for their child, (under the age of 21), I will stop that sale as well.
Randal Berry
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