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RE: Age restriction.
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by 23bms on March 27, 2010
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Thanks Cro. I wish I could dig up the article and follow up with the responses.
Regardless, there are valid reasons for setting a statutory minimum age. Risk behavior in youth is statistically proven. The problem is that laws cannot exempt the occasional exceptions.
One of my neighbors raises beef cattle. His grandson (late high school age) has worked on the farm for years. One of my wife's patients who knew him very well commented that the grandson was grown up before he was born (less exaggeration than you might think). I know plenty of others who are in their 50's who still haven't grown up. Where do you define the line?
There is a modern tendency to carry legal restrictions to ludicrous extremes. There has to be a balance somewhere. There is no such thing as perfectly safe. Is it really government's responsibility to protect you from every conceivable ill that may befall you?
The basic problem in keeping hots is two fold. Statistically, the risk is almost exclusively to the keeper. There is, however, an almost hysterical perception of public risk among the general populace, encouraged by the politicians who prey upon them. Where do you draw the line considering that the law you are proposing will effect everyone? The answer proposed by governmental bodies that address the question is that you draw it at the maximum level of maturity or competence that you can legislate. The current tendency seems to be to define that level as a PhD employed at a governmentally sanctioned institution. This is the left swing of the pendulum. The equally idiotic right swing is the concept of no regulation.
I started keeping at 18. After 40+ years I have never suffered a bite. Should that be validation for 18? My idiot younger brother, at 18, got nailed on the right hand by a timber and on the left, seconds later, by a copperhead (don't ask). If you were a lawmaker, you would never learn the first story, only the second. What would you do?
jrb
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RE: Age restriction.
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by 23bms on March 27, 2010
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John,
The counter argument plunges perilously close to the nurture side of the nature/nurture controversy.
This is one of those controversies where political philosophy and physiological preconceptions of human nature have an unseemly way of influencing studies. I do not presume to weigh in professionally on either side. However, my education and life experience trend me toward nature rather than nurture.
I really would like to track down the articles.
jrb
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RE: Age restriction.
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by 23bms on March 28, 2010
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addenda:
I should have added to, 'the politicians', the AR types who are, for the most part, the primary instigators.
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RE: Age restriction.
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by 23bms on March 28, 2010
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Randall,
re: if I suspect a parent is making a venomous purchase for their child, (under the age of 21), I will stop that sale as well.
One of the sanest comments I've read on this thread. Dealers at hot reptile shows should show the same responsibility that gun dealers do. Verification of age and residence in a legal state and locale should be required. A legal adult buying for an illegal kid? If you can smoke it out, don't do it.
When I buy a gun, I fill out the forms and my local dealer goes on line and has an approval in 60 seconds. Why can't the dealers at Hamburg and elsewhere do the same? Yes, I know the system isn't in place for hots. But why not put it there? What's the difference? What will the hobby loose except the people who shouldn't be keeping in the first place and who are now killing it?
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RE: Age restriction.
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by lanceheads on March 28, 2010
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John,
I am slightly confused by this statement you made.
"A legal adult buying for an illegal kid? If you can smoke it out, don't do it."
What are you really trying to say? I am confused by this.
Thanks,
Randal Berry
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RE: Age restriction.
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by Cro on March 28, 2010
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The federal government folks allow the purchase of rifles at age 18.
They allow folks to join the military at age 18.
The state of Florida (one of the few states with a reasonable venomous reptile law) allows folks to get an exotic venomous license at age 18.
Folks can buy a house at age 18 and enter a legally binding mortgage contract.
At age 18, folks can vote some nit-wit into the White House.
So, for the most part, 18 is the national De facto age.
The exception would be for the purchase of pistols and alcoholic beverages, and running for some political offices.
It is sort of funny to hear a show promoter jump on his high horse and say that he is going to save the world from venomous snakes making it to folks who are under age 21. While he can set rules for his shows, he is also treading on thin legal ground if he refuses sales to someone over 21, just based on "suspicion," as parents do have a right to make purchases for kids who are too young to make those purchases themselves.
A great example is automobiles. A 16 year old can not go out and purchase one from a car dealer, but, the parent sure can, and give that car to the kid. And cars in the hands of teen drivers are far more deadly than venomous snakes ever were.
Is a car dealer going to refuse a sale to an adult, if the suspects the car will actually be going to a 16 year old kid ?
The problem with venomous reptiles, is that 98 % of the folks out there hate all snakes, and they think that venomous keepers are the strangest of the group.
Almost ALL of the venomous snake bites that make the news, and hurt the reptile keeping hobby, are on keepers who are above the age of 21.
When was the last time anyone heard of someone under age 18 getting bitten by a venomous snake pet ? It rarely happens.
Not counting Jon's brother (and I do want to know how he managed 2 bites at the same time),
the only one I can remember in resent years was the kid who took copperhead to school to show it off, that he allegedly found (found on a vendors table at Hamburg the week before), and managed to let it bite some girl who was a fellow classmate.
This thread is about age restriction, however, age is not the problem. Pick a arbitrary age of 18 and use that for venomous reptile sales. That is the De facto age that the country has accepted. Make it older than that, and you show promoters could be discriminating against folks, and actually breaking state and / or federal laws.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: Age restriction.
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by lanceheads on March 28, 2010
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John, Before you get all high and mighty again,(which you seem to do a lot), the rule of being 21 to purchase snakes at my show is the policy of the City of Live Oak Civic center. I am bound to uphold their rules.Don't like the rule? Then I suggest you don't attend my show, simple as that.
Cheer's
Randal Berry
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RE: Age restriction.
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by Cro on March 28, 2010
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Jon, the original study you are talking about is this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19699416
That study spawned a large number of articles in non-scientific publications, and talking heads on TV, many of which drew conclusions that were nothing like the original study.
However, as I stated, other researchers published results after that that formed just the opposite conclusions about teen age risk taking.
This one takes a bit of a different view:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19899880
I will try to find others that countered the original study, and post a link.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: Age restriction.
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by lanceheads on March 28, 2010
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One thing I forgot to add, John, your statement:
"It is sort of funny to hear a show promoter jump on his high horse and say that he is going to save the world from venomous snakes making it to folks who are under age 21. While he can set rules for his shows, he is also treading on thin legal ground if he refuses sales to someone over 21, just based on "suspicion," as parents do have a right to make purchases for kids who are too young to make those purchases themselves."
I never said that I was "going to save the world"
Never even inferred it. Go back and read my post S L O W L Y....
Yes, I can set the rules for my own show.
As far as denying a parent or person over 21 from purchasing a venomous reptile if I "suspicion",that they are buying it for their under-21 child, friend, acquaintence, that is my choice and it is not actionable by an attorney. You have zero basis to support that assine statement, because:
#1. Your not an Attorney.
#2. See the above.
For further verification, you may contact our show Attorney, email me, and I will gladly put you in touch with him.
Cheers,
Randal Berry
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RE: Age restriction.
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by 23bms on March 28, 2010
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re: two bites at the same time.
This is almost too ridiculous for belief. He was at scout camp as a junior leader the summer following his high school graduation. Someone spotted a timber rattler. He pinned it and caught it, holding it with his right hand. Just at that moment someone else spotted a copperhead. Rather than bag the timber, he held on to it and had someone pin the copperhead which he grabbed with his left hand. In the process, he neglected to pay adequate attention to the timber in his right hand which squirmed around and nailed his right index finger. In the excitement of that he neglected to pay adequate attention to the copperhead in his left hand which managed to turn and nail the left index finger. He sat down and said, "Oh sh*t." A few minutes later he was carted off to a hospital. I don't know what happened to the snakes. When I heard about it I just rolled my eyes, shook my head and resolved to never let him near my animals, a resolution I kept to the end of my keeping career. I told you not to ask.
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