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ratio of wild caught to captive bred
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by asud on June 8, 2010
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can someone give me a (very broad) idea of the % of foreign/domestic snakes still wild caught? i know this may be largely a matter of educated guesstimate and may be easier to approximate based on geography (as opposed to genus).
when did captive breeding really take off? who were the first pioneers, particularly for gaboons and other bitis? anyone know offhand?
a couple of related q's: with the relative rewards of cb (big broods, healthier, etc.) and costs/risks of wc, why is there still a market for foreign wc specimens? also, are there any snakes that are just too finicky to breed and thus always end up being imported?
thanks, adam
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RE: ratio of wild caught to captive bred
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by CanadianSnakeMan on June 8, 2010
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From the research I've done, wild caught specimens are still very common throughout the pet trade. Although captive breeding has dented the demand for certain species somewhat, many are still being wild caught. This is true throughout the reptile trade, not just among venomous snakes.
It is difficult to tell exactly what percent of imported animals are wild caught because there is no mandate to document whether imports are WC or CB. It would be safe to assume however, that most imported reptiles from third world nations are probably WC or come from 'breeding farms' which are not any better.
The main driving force behind WC animals is the price. Workers in third world countries are paid next to nothing to round up the snakes, which are housed and shipped in large groups with improper care to cut down on costs. The consumer is then faced with the option of paying much less money for what they may view as the same product. This is especially true if the retailer is dishonest to the consumer as to whether the snake they are purchasing is WC.
As far as the captive breeding history of hots I'm not an expert. I think the contributions Bill Haast had to reptile research and conservation in general is important to remember, but I don't know whether or not he pioneered the captive breeding of Bitis ssp. I believe Tom Crutchfield was an important part of popularizing foreign venomous reptiles as pets in the US (although he did lots of wild-importing). If my facts are off, someone please let me know.
It does go without saying that the more captive breeding that is done the better it will be for the hobby and the environment.
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RE: ratio of wild caught to captive bred
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by venominme on June 8, 2010
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I would add that a lot of imported wild collected are snakes and other critters that are doomed if not collected. Often the land is being cleared, burned, plowed, deforested or stripped and the selling off of the fauna represents a little side money for locals who have learned there’s a few bucks in catching them instead of just killing them on the spot. If the market for them dried up, they’d just go back to killing them. Truth. I would love to hear Tom Crutchfield contribute, or just write that book Tom!
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RE: ratio of wild caught to captive bred
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by CanadianSnakeMan on June 8, 2010
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Conservation is key. We should leave the snakes in the wild alone, but we should also leave their habitat alone - the two go hand-in-hand.
They just found a new species of African Bush Viper last year (A. mabuensis). It only goes to show that we're putting all this effort into destroying the environment when have so much left to learn.
I do aggree with you though, Norman. It's better they get funnelled into the pet trade rather than being killed if their habitat is being destroyed anyway.
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RE: ratio of wild caught to captive bred
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by BobH on June 8, 2010
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Great questions. I am sure nobody knows the exact answer but if we are considering just venomous, I would guess that wc probably still out number captive borns. You are correct that if you did it genus by genus, I am sure some would be mostly captive born, while others would be mostly wild caught. I do think a lot of people will go out of their way to get captive born specimens and more and more species are being bred.
I would hasten a guess that for some non-venomous species like corn snakes, there are probable more captive born specimens available than wild caught.
I hope some others will chime in on this.
Bob
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RE: ratio of wild caught to captive bred
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by Cro on June 8, 2010
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Here is a link to some interesting related statistics.
http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ddusitwr.htm
It is estimated that about 2 million wild caught reptiles and amphibians are imported into the US every year.
It is also estimated that 80 % to 90 % of those animals die in the first year. So, there is not much difference of them being killed in their own countries.
I do not think that most of the imported animals are salvaged from areas where land is being cleared, and where they would be killed anyway.
I think most are intentionally caught by folks in those countries who make their livings hunting reptiles for the pet trade.
It is mostly about money and greed. The folks importing for the most part do not look upon the animals as living creatures, but, instead, as a product to sell.
You can see those folks at some reptile shows, unpacking crates of freshly imported reptiles, right out of the crates, and into the deli cup. No food or water for those animals for days or weeks. No treatment for internal parasites. No concern for possible disease like IBD. Nope, it is just about money. Sell as many of those iguana lizards as possible to folks who attend the show. And the show promoters allow that to happen. Time and time again.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: ratio of wild caught to captive bred
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by CanadianSnakeMan on June 9, 2010
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Is there anyone (other than PETA and HSUS) lobbying the show promoters/pet stores/etc to stop selling WC?
I think they'd be more inclined to listen if the opposition was coming from inside the reptile community (i.e. their customers).
Who could we talk to?
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RE: ratio of wild caught to captive bred
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by venominme on June 9, 2010
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I believe there are several captive bred only shows (not with hots) and the promoting of morphs within the hobby is a direct effort to make captive produced a more desireable thing. People should just be made aware at every opportunity to favor captive bred whenever possible and be willing to accept and pay the slightly higher price. I do have to say again a lot of the wild caught are a by product of habitat destruction and some people do not realize the massive extent of that problem. It is basically every possible inch of ground that is not preserved by mandate and some of those lands too. Almost all species are in decline, their habitats will eventually not exist and they are destined to be threatened, endangered and then non existant. Getting them into the hands of breeders, which includes hobby fanciers, is in some ways the only way they will continue to be available at all. You might wish the habitat were not disappearing, but it is unrealistic to deny it. Save as many as we can now before they are formally protected and unavailable to the hobby breeders. We absolutely need captive populations both within the established zoo system and the private contributors too.
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RE: ratio of wild caught to captive bred
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by CanadianSnakeMan on June 9, 2010
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In the bigger picture, if we want species to be well represented in captivity, then we can't only focus on reptiles. What good is it unless all the plant and animal species in the threatened ecosystems are preserved in captivity (which is not feasible). The focus should be on conservation rather than saving a few species.
As far as the pet trade goes, it should be as low-impace as possible. This means not only captive breeding but also educating the public, promoting the wellbeing of captive animals, giving some profits to environmental charities and promoting conservation overseas. These are all concepts that are lacking in the pet trade. I'm not a PETA type and never have been, but the more that all those involved in the pet trade (and this includes us) support a system that harms ecosystems and animals, the stronger of a case PETA has to try and shut us down.
We can all start by demanding a higher code of ethics from the people we choose to buy our reptiles from.
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RE: ratio of wild caught to captive bred
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by jared on June 10, 2010
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I just gotta chime in. What about reptiles that arent, cant or have never been captive bred. What about the first breeding of WC bushmasters or moscow zoo with Feas vipers. The reason new species are being discovered at a phenomenal rate is because we are now logging the very LAST areas left and they have no more jungle to retreat into. I just saw today reptiles around the world (snake Sp in particular) are in severe decline globally. As far as the stats of *0 to 90% of WC animals dying, thats straight BS. I wonder if HSUS had any influence on those stats. In the mid 80 when we were bringing in fresh import lots of 1000 ball pythons at a time, less than 10% of the lot would die. There are TONS of people on here bringing in WC import african and asian animals all the time with VERY few dying and most of those being husbandry specific (ie A.hispada and feas cause people dont know how to care for them). In vetrinary medicine 99% of reptiles we see are based on husbandry issues, and I would assume with the rarer species that is also what contributes to there demise. I mean until Dean started kicking out bushmasters everyone was telling him it couldnt be done right? I selectively collect, I do wildlife calls, and in almost 20 years of working with wildlife I can say that about 1 in 100 wc snakes I see are in bad shape. The issue is the humans that recieve them, and have no idea what they are doing with them. Again, I know of several shipments from africa and asia that just made it over in the last 3 months with less than 5% of those animals dying. Statistics are all based on who is giving the test, and who is taking it.
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