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RE: Panacur/Flagyl dosage for Crotalus horridus
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by Nakita on July 21, 2014
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I tried to update my profile to show the animal in question, however didn't have much luck.
Here is a link to a photo the landowner snapped when I picked it up for him. What you can't see is his mailbox approximately 4ft to the left of the photo, which is where the little one was discovered.
The snake appears much longer than it really is due to "forced perspective". Keep in mind the hook is over 40" long, which may help to put its true size into perspective.
[IMG]http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/Luvthemtorts/544ce4c9e1502f8697d56f2984e119a4_zps646e2fa0.jpg[/IMG]
Based on the photo, does it look heavy enough for its size? As mentioned, every horridus I have found to date have been much larger and considerably thicker.
As always, I greatly appreciate you guys taking the time to help me hopefully keep this little one from withering away.
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RE: Panacur/Flagyl dosage for Crotalus horridus
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by choppergreg74 on July 21, 2014
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From the pic it does not appear gravid. However one can not be sure. From the pic it looks to be a female by the tail. It may have 2 or 3 babies or slugs. Only time will tell. It is also a very nice looking Timber. Give it some time. And cover the cage front with a towel for added security. And see if you can find some road kill chipmunks.
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RE: Panacur/Flagyl dosage for Crotalus horridus
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by Nakita on July 22, 2014
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Well, the warm water soak worked its magic. Fifteen minutes in the tub and I was rewarded with a good sized stool, as well as a good amount of urates.
The animal must have eaten relatively recently before capture since there is no way the one hopper mouse that it has eaten since being in captivity would have resulted in that much fecal material. I will admit to doing a bit of "poo diving", and it appears the little one has no problem with mammals in general since there was evidence of hair.
I'm praying this is a step in the right direction, and Lord willing the African Soft Furred will work as well as advertised.
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RE: Panacur/Flagyl dosage for Crotalus horridus
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by FSB on July 25, 2014
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Sorry to be arriving a bit late to this (very interesting) discussion and I've only had time to skim over really quickly so I apologize if I'm repeating anything already said.... With WC horridus I have found that it sometimes takes a WC prey item or 2 to get them started in captivity. These should, of course, be frozen for at least 2 weeks prior to feeding, but would include brown or black rats, cotton rats, deer mice, chipmunks, etc. etc. I usually freeze any such items that I come across, catch in a trap, etc., and just keep them on hand in the freezer in case I have a situation where it's needed. Typically after 1 or 2 meals of a food they recognize, the snakes will settle down and start taking normal f/t domestic stuff. Another really tempting treat that I've never had one refuse is young rabbit, domestic or wild. That said, timbers can go a very long time without eating or doing themselves any harm, so the main thing is not to get too worried.
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RE: Panacur/Flagyl dosage for Crotalus horridus
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by FSB on July 25, 2014
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Also, I believe that gastrointestinal parasites are not necessarily pathogenic in nature and shouldn't be the cause of so much concern. Reptiles tend to carry loads of such organisms and they may actually be needed for a healthy digestive tract, so killing them all off could be doing your animal more harm than good. It's only when things get out of balance that there is a problem, and a major cause of imbalance and a lowered immune response is stress, so minimizing stress of all kinds is a primary strategy. Keeping the cage immaculately clean is another very important factor - don't let fecals sit around (especially enormous rattlesnake fecals). Rattlesnakes are especially fond of clean surroundings and fresh water - you really can't change their water too often. Prophylactic treatments for parasites, as when reptile dealers dose an entire shipment of new snakes with Panacur or Flagyl regardless of diagnosis, is a really bad practice that should be discouraged as it most likely results in the creation of drug-resistant parasites.
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RE: Panacur/Flagyl dosage for Crotalus horridus
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by Nakita on July 25, 2014
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Frederick,
Thanks for the additional input!
I will admit this little guy is worrying me to death, but your post eases my mind a bit. In my mind I know it can go for quite some time before eating, however the thought of it not ever settling in enough to eat is unsettling.
I will admit to being scared to death of dealing with wild prey animals, in particular mice, since they carry some truly horrific diseases, however I guess I'll go ahead and try to obtain a few since it is obviously my responsibility to do everything I can to keep the animal healthy.
The African Soft Furred Rats arrived and still no joy. It has no interest whatsoever. My next move is a live Dwarf Hamster and if that is refused then the advice of wild prey will be next on the agenda.
One thing that really boggles my mind is this little guy absolutely will not strike. Obviously it struck the one prey item it did eat in the beginning, however repeated attempts at feeding failed to even draw a defensive strike. That concerns me as well since the CB horridus I have kept in the past would at the very least strike the prey item even if they didn't eat at that particular time.
I've got a lot of learning to do when it comes to WC animals, and it seems this is my baptism by fire. I've gone so far as to start a prayer chain for the little guy LOL! (No offense to anyone's personal beliefs).
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RE: Panacur/Flagyl dosage for Crotalus horridus
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by agkistrodude on July 27, 2014
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In my experience, a W/C animal will always have parasites present, that's normal. In the wild it's fine. But in a captive environment it can then increase to dangerous levels, be it from stress of being caught, a new environment, or whatever. I've seen it happen. All it has to do is poop, and it leaves parasites in the substrate. Unless you catch the poop before it hits the ground, or completely change all of the substrate immediately after it poops, every time, it will transfer parasites. Those will then be picked up by the snake, and it's possible those parasites can be then also be transferred to the rest of your collection just from a hook, another tool, or your hands if your not careful. That is why I always treat a W/C animal once it's settled in and feeding. I've never seen Panacur injected into a rat or mouse hurt a snake in all the years I've been doing it, and through fecal exams have always seen it help. No, I'm NOT a vet, just my opinion. Take care, Marty
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RE: Panacur/Flagyl dosage for Crotalus horridus
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by Nakita on August 1, 2014
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The longer this is going on the more I believe it is gravid. The animal still continues to bask almost constantly and she appears to be more swollen in the rear portion of her body than when originally captured. In addition, her basking postures have changed. Instead of coiling tightly she stretches out more and seems to concentrate her lower abdomen on the warmest portion of the enclosure
After doing extensive research, the smallest horridus I found to give birth was 27 inches so it is certainly within the relalm of possibility.
On a side note, the animal has actually GAINED weight, is drinking well, and appears to be doing fine.
Lord willing, I'll check the enclosure within the next few weeks or so and find a few neonates staring back. By the animal's calm demeanor I truly believe that if she gives birth she will start feeding.
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RE: Panacur/Flagyl dosage for Crotalus horridus
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by Nakita on August 2, 2014
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Well,
Scratch all of the above. The glorious little creature ate a nice sized chick at 3:05am. It didn't even strike when wiggling it in front of its face, so I sat it on the log. Not more than 2 minutes later it was in the snakes mouth and on its way to providing some good nutrition.
I am so excited guys and I truly hope I've turned the corner with this little fella. I could care less if it stays on chicks for good as long as it continues to eat LOL!
Thanks again for all the help and input through this trying time!
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RE: Panacur/Flagyl dosage for Crotalus horridus
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by agkistrodude on August 2, 2014
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That's great! Maybe that warm water soak and the poop did it. Whatever it was, that's great news! Best of luck, hope it continues. Take care, Marty
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