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Stoping the venomoid practice?
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by ALA_herp31 on December 18, 2004
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Ya'll is thare anything we as respocible herpers can do to stop this barbaic practice? I know this is a major problem in our comunity, lets try and nip this procidure in the butt ya'll. God it just makes me sick to see such wonerful animals be treated like cuting bords........Be safe ya'll, Wally
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RE: Stoping the venomoid practice?
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Anonymous post on December 19, 2004
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Yes, we need to stop the practice, but nothing can be done to stop it. It will continue even with laws against it..! Wally (no offense) but use spell check next time you post.
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RE: Stoping the venomoid practice?
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Anonymous post on December 19, 2004
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Wally,
You can start by creating cool-headed, awareness, amongst your peers. I have heard every argument in support of venomoids you can think of. None justify the cruelty.
The SHHS's position on venomoid snakes is "To NOT take a position in support or against, thereof". This position is admirable. We all know why they do it. Why divide a venomous community based on ideals when we already have enough shit to deal with? Such a position, to NOT have a position on venomoids, is resulting in support thereof.
Christ says, "Those who are not for me, are against me"
A much less intelligent, (though correct) George W. Bush says,..."You are either with the United States, or you are with the terrorists"
Point being to not support the opposition of venomoids indirectly allows other "would be" venomous herpetoculturist to go astray and contribute something that majority here appears to hate. This leads to more senseless pain for snakes. Why do we keep? Because of the love of the animals. Just think how many could be persuaded with the VOICE of the SHHS taking a position against it. Just think, with an endorsed position how many snakes this will save. Both lives and pain.
No flames intended. I think this is a position that the society should reexamine, because it is morally wrong. And everybody seems to think so....
Every animal has a right to an existance. To live free from unnecessary pains.
-The Phantom
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RE: Stoping the venomoid practice?
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by KINGRIUS on December 20, 2004
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Thank you for your thoughts on this issue, the Phantom. I second his/her motion on this matter.
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RE: Stoping the venomoid practice?
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by ALA_herp31 on December 20, 2004
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Thanks Phantom, I agree with that idia. I hope down the road we can get this stupid practice stoped, I in large part think that most herpers agree with trying to stop the venomoid trade also. Thanks again for posting.....Be safe ya'll, happy herping Wally
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The SHHS is NOT FOR venomoids!
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by Buzztail1 on December 20, 2004
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Well, “The Phantom”, here’s the thing.
Lots of people would like to co-opt “the voice of the SHHS” to their own particular cause. And yet, when we say right out that we need help or support, all of a sudden, everybody has something else to do or they need to be paid for their time or some other excuse.
You want to have a society that stands up for something that you think is morally right?
Try putting yourself out there with your name in front of it.
Your anonymous rhetoric cannot put me into a position that supports venomoids.
You can google check for the rest of your life and never find a post by me that supports venomoids. I advise people against buying them. I do not condone making them – not even for the obviously not true reason that they are for educational purposes. The fact that I don’t berate people when they ask about venomoids does not mean that I support them.
“Cool-headed awareness” is the path we have chosen. You don’t have to agree with it.
You are free to start your own anti-venomoid society. You won’t be alone. There are several.
You also won’t change anyone’s mind by banning them from your company. They will just ask someone else and get less of the truth than if you had bothered to take the time to calmly explain what is wrong with venomoiding.
Years ago, when several of the “older – more wiser – regular posters” on kingsnake dot com decided that they had had enough of the regulation and over moderation of the forums there and left, I warned them that would leave the door open for the wanna-bes and newbies to get bad advice. Been there lately? Guess who’s giving advice nowadays! The same folks who just five years ago were telling Allen Hunter that he must be wrong, mambas aren’t difficult. The same folks who tell people that Gaboon Vipers are great starter snakes.
You want a stance?
Here’s a stance. I think that the days of hiding behind anonymity should be gone and everybody should stand up and be counted. Open your mouth and be heard. Give something back to the venomous community. Or shut the hell up about what other people SHOULD be doing. We are already doing as much as we can by ourselves without the need for guidance from names without faces.
By the way, there is an online petition to stop unlicensed venomoiding. I just looked. I didn’t see “The Phantom” listed. So, maybe by not signing the petition you are supporting venomoids?
Check for yourself. It is at: http://reptilians.org/petitions/petvenom/
“Everybody seems to think so…” only implies that the people who won’t participate in the work want more of the say. Sorry, that won’t fly. I already have a boss at my paying job.
Still against venomoids, regardless of your opinion.
Karl H. Betz
Vice President
Southeastern Hot Herp Society
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RE: The SHHS is NOT FOR venomoids!
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Anonymous post on December 21, 2004
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Karl,
Those are some serious flames. Allow me to respond sequentially.
>>Well, “The Phantom”, here’s the thing.
Lots of people would like to co-opt “the voice of the SHHS” to their own particular cause. And yet, when we say right out that we need help or support, all of a sudden, everybody has something else to do or they need to be paid for their time or some other excuse.
You want to have a society that stands up for something that you think is morally right?
Try putting yourself out there with your name in front of it.
Your anonymous rhetoric cannot put me into a position that supports venomoids.
I appreciate my anonymity, and you don’t. If it’s truly a serious problem, please advise me and I’ll go. I’m not interested in making anyone angry. I’m interested in this issue. You don’t know me. You don’t know what I do. My time is lacking. For the right cause I will make time. If you need help, ask. I’m sure you could use me. I’m a “Go-getter”. If I step up from within will the SHHS reconsider this position? If I were an officer, I predict myself making everyone miserable pushing this issue. I would step up, but this is an issue I feel too strongly about, and it would need to be addressed immediately. I would step up, but I wonder if you guys would actually want my assistance. I would like to see the SHHS openly condemn the issue. Whether I am a member or not really isn’t that relevant. Is this how “The Society” responds to criticism? Or is anyone a jerk who makes suggestions about organizations you assume they aren’t affiliated with? I resent your tone. My interests Karl are just that. My interests.
>>You can google check for the rest of your life and never find a post by me that supports venomoids. I advise people against buying them. I do not condone making them – not even for the obviously not true reason that they are for educational purposes. The fact that I don’t berate people when they ask about venomoids does not mean that I support them.
“Cool-headed awareness” is the path we have chosen. You don’t have to agree with it.
You are free to start your own anti-venomoid society. You won’t be alone. There are several.
You also won’t change anyone’s mind by banning them from your company. They will just ask someone else and get less of the truth than if you had bothered to take the time to calmly explain what is wrong with venomoiding
I have always understood that you don’t support venomoids. Chris Harper too. In fact, damn near all of the officers don’t. But the fact of the matter remains, that the organization doesn’t have a position for or against venomoids. Many officers do, but the organization doesn’t. My opinion on the matter is that this isn’t a firm enough position, and thus “not for the greater good of snakes”. You obviously disagree, and despise my saying so. For what I feel to be the greatest good of the hobby and the animals, I may start a different society. “Active Venomoiding” would be a restriction, but the organization wouldn’t condemn those who had them immediately. It’s still about fun too. It’s simple. There would be a very common understanding why we disapprove of venomoids. The rules are “That if you re-offend, and become an active venomoid hobbyist-You’re out.” It’s about the animals. This is one restriction, but there would be others too. The purpose of this hypothetical division would be to define “a code of ethical standards” establishing discipline, that I (and many others) appreciate of becoming venomous hobbyists. Applying it here (just an idea) officers of the SHHS who possess venomoids would not be allowed to buy anymore (b/c this contributes to the market), or sell any specimens (b/c this contributes to the market). They could be required to sign a sworn statement endorsing the positioin publicly and privately. Adenectomy surgeries hurt snakes. There is no justifiable cause. What in the hell is wrong with the SHHS saying “WE think this is wrong”, as a society? I’m not proposing a new Nazi organization! The hobby is still supposed to be fun, but let’s face it…..there needs to be more discipline in the level of respect people have for these snakes!. Hurting snakes is unacceptable. Venomoiders are typically (not always) novice and under qualified interests. By embracing novice interests, we allow them to observe the policy. Nobody is being condemned, but instead they are being instructed. We invite them in....based on certain conditions. The venomoider has a misinterpreted the purpose of keeping snakes. Trust me, this policy would set a different standard most certainly to provoke discussion. Firmness on these ethical principles will create a more sound moral structure in the way our hobby views the animals we keep. This created tone will also impact the venomoid trade.
An article published on this site says “Venomoids are here to stay”. Interesting point, but I disagree…..to some extent. It would be unrealistic for me to say, “the world will never see another venomoid again”. There will always be some self-absorbed individual doing it even with such a policy in place. A more active stance commands more respect. Let’s face it, those who surgically alter and deal in venomoid snakes don’t respect the animals. To me, they are traders to the animals. Venomoids may always be amongst us to some degree, but a more active tone will undoubtedly lessen the numbers, and this is the ultimate mission. Legal battles are also an issue we must face. All venomous hobbyists are going to face obstacles in the near future. This “issue” should also be added to the plate.
>>Years ago, when several of the “older – more wiser – regular posters” on kingsnake dot com decided that they had had enough of the regulation and over moderation of the forums there and left, I warned them that would leave the door open for the wanna-bes and newbies to get bad advice. Been there lately? Guess who’s giving advice nowadays! The same folks who just five years ago were telling Allen Hunter that he must be wrong, mambas aren’t difficult. The same folks who tell people that Gaboon Vipers are great starter snakes.
You’re point being? I don’t see how this relates to our discussion.
>>You want a stance?
Here’s a stance. I think that the days of hiding behind anonymity should be gone and everybody should stand up and be counted. Open your mouth and be heard. Give something back to the venomous community. Or shut the hell up about what other people SHOULD be doing. We are already doing as much as we can by ourselves without the need for guidance from names without faces
Sometimes it’s tough to say the appropriate thing when you want your voice heard, and YOU DON’T WANT YOUR POST DELETED. Let’s move on.
>>By the way, there is an online petition to stop unlicensed venomoiding. I just looked. I didn’t see “The Phantom” listed. So, maybe by not signing the petition you are supporting venomoids?
Check for yourself. It is at: http://reptilians.org/petitions/petvenom/
Your sarcasm is noted. Don’t worry about whether or not I’m there. I do my part.
>>“Everybody seems to think so…” only implies that the people who won’t participate in the work want more of the say. Sorry, that won’t fly. I already have a boss at my paying job.
Still against venomoids, regardless of your opinion.
Your point in reference implies nothing of the sort, Karl! It’s important to put your money where your mouth is. People should participate. People should do all they can. It isn’t fair for the same people who work hard all the time to keep doing it. I am not disputing any of those complaints, but to draw a direct relationship between those who are lazy and unsupportive and those who believe in voicing/following moral guidelines is absolutely ridiculous. I am not proposing a mutiny. Believe me, I am on your side.
As said before, “No flames intended”, but any further responses like your last one will be ignored. These are criticisms worth mentioning and acting upon, and as an acting member and Vice President of the Southeast Venomous Herpetological Society, YOU (I would think)should be obligated "to hear" every voice concerned with the animals, the hobby, and the society. Wherever the hell they come from!
-The Phantom
PS More food for thought. Would the SHHS allow Kevin Smith (a known hacker), and Bruce of Carolina Reptile Exchange membership in the organization? It’s Internet Reptile Community Public Knowledge that these individuals possess questionable reputations.
Are they eligible for membership?
Why? Or Why Not?
Selectiveness is warranted.
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RE: Stoping the venomoid practice?
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by Buzztail1 on December 21, 2004
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Sorry you saw it as flames. I meant for it to be in the same tone as your "attack".
1) Your anonymity is yours. Absolutely. And therefore this discussion can't be held via email and you never have to be held accountable for your position or comments. We continue to allow anonymous posts as long as they are not derogatory or inflammatory as I have posted over and over again.
2) Because of your anonymity I do not know you or what you do. Because of my lack of anonymity, everyone thinks they know me and what I do. Your time is lacking? Explain that to me later this year while I am on a 6 month deployment. EVERYONE lacks time. Not one single officer of the SHHS sits around and works on the website or answers posts or writes articles or edits the newsletter because they don't have a job and family that needs their attention. They do it because they are "Go-getters".
If we need help ask? Step up from within the society?
3) So if you make people miserable and they leave the society because it just isn't worth the trouble, what exactly is it that you are accomplishing with no membership?
4) "Whether I am a member or not really isn’t that relevant." Exactly. You are anonymous and therefore not in a position to state which direction the SHHS should take.
5) Nope. This is how I respond to attacks on the SHHS. For an "official position" you would need to directly contact Chris Harper. His email is webmaster@venomousreptiles.org . Feel free to contact him and discuss what a poor job I am doing representing the venomous community. You resent my tone? Good. We are even on that score.
6) “You obviously disagree, and despise my saying so.” Actually not exactly true. What I despise is the fact that you take your vocal stance as a nonentity.
7) Please do start just such a described society. Perhaps I will join.
8) “Applying it here (just an idea) officers of the SHHS who possess venomoids would not be allowed to buy anymore (b/c this contributes to the market), or sell any specimens (b/c this contributes to the market). They could be required to sign a sworn statement endorsing the positioin publicly and privately.”
This actually made me laugh. Look around. Do you see a whole lot of people pushing to be officers in the SHHS? Why not? Oh yeah. They will have to do lots of work for no pay and little reward other than the knowledge that they helped the community and some pointed criticism from people who don’t even want you to know their name. What a deal!
9) My answer to 7) applies.
10) “Legal battles are also an issue we must face. All venomous hobbyists are going to face obstacles in the near future. This “issue” should also be added to the plate.” Sure. Where do you think we will get the money for legal battles? The membership dues that used to be collected barely covered the newsletter and the mailing of same. We are nonprofit in virtually every sense of the word.
11 “You’re point being? I don’t see how this relates to our discussion.”
You missed that? Okay. In the absence of intelligent experience, anyone with lesser knowledge and information can and will step in. Therefore if people who are interested in venomoids cannot ask about caring for their animals here because we have ousted them, they will get information from whoever they can and their animals will suffer EVEN MORE!
12) Here’s a stance. I think that the days of hiding behind anonymity should be gone and everybody should stand up and be counted. Open your mouth and be heard. Give something back to the venomous community. Or shut the hell up about what other people SHOULD be doing. We are already doing as much as we can by ourselves without the need for guidance from names without faces
“Sometimes it’s tough to say the appropriate thing when you want your voice heard, and YOU DON’T WANT YOUR POST DELETED. Let’s move on.” That’s a shame. That’s my stance. When Chris Harper emails me (or posts) and tells me to back off from it, I will quit posting it. But until then, that is how I feel about it.
13) “Your sarcasm is noted. Don’t worry about whether or not I’m there. I do my part.”
Okay, then. Ditto. Does that answer work for you?
14) I “hear” every voice. I read every ad and every post. Sometimes I am at sea and it may be days later but I do get to them. Some I answer by email. Some, like this one, I can’t. Some I delete. I appreciate your taking this opportunity to tell me what I should be doing as Vice President of the SHHS. You think my “direct relationship” is “ridiculous”? My email is public record. I have yet to receive the email I expected from someone I know saying “I am The Phantom and I am just trying to stir things up.” So all I have to go on is an anonymous entity that says we should do better. Okay, I heard you.
15) Just a little current events question. How do you propose for ANYONE to join the SHHS? Did you not notice the missing link to the left for the membership application? That would be missing, in large part, due to the lack of people who care enough to write an article for the newsletter. So, no newsletter, no reason to pay dues, no reason for membership. Selective? Yeah, I vote we select for people who will participate. You want to criticize the organization’s stand on venomoids and then say that you will ignore my response to your post. Well, my anonymous thorn, ignore away. KHB
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Anonymous post on December 21, 2004
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It was NOT a personal attack on you or the SHHS. I have gone through great efforts to make that clear. Anyone can see that. Have a nice day, Karl.
Yours,
-The Phantom
PS The above should read, "traitors", not "traders", as in "to the animals".
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