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RE: For Thomas and Scott
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by stopgetinpopped on December 25, 2004
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So to sum up what you said... Elite!
Elite is not derogatory, nor is it egoism.
Novice is not derogatory, nor is it shameful.
They are facts. If you have limited experience in a given subject, you are a novice. If you have a large understanding and experience of a given subject you become an elite member of that particular subject.
Much like you described it.
Veterans with the knowledge, experience, attitude, respect and properly implemented safety protocols.
I do consider responsible large constrictor keepers to be Elite snake keepers. As these are not for novices.
I do consider responsible Varanid keepers Elite Lizard keepers as these are not for novices.
I do consider responsible crocodilians to be Elite.
As these animals are not for novices.
What the Phantom had to say is very sensible. This hobby needs some "thinning out" as it is full of garden variety weeds that need to be pulled.
As he (or wait she? hahaha) said it was a rough draft, a work in progress.
I have spoken with many officials in Government, in the field of Zoology and in the private sector. Those that have a serious interest in the future of this topic all agree that their needs to be some regulated "Elitism" And I do use the word as it reads in the dictionary, not a term of ego.
Look at seasoned firefighters, police, doctors and of course the military. These are at MINIMUM, to be lead or 'headed' by the Elite (experienced, seasoned, knowledgable, prepared veterans!)
So Yes! Elite IS the proper word for those that graduate from small inocuous species to the more dangerous reptiles. Be it constrictors, varanids, crocodilians or Venomous snakes!
Best Regards,
Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.
www.reptilegardens.com
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NOT VENOM 101
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Anonymous post on December 25, 2004
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More like, "VENOM 001". You missed the point entirely. It's good info, and I think you could benefit too. Read it again....the whole thread.
The Saga of "The Phantom Menace" continues.....
Elite-
Text Definition of "ELITE"-
[n] a group or class of persons enjoying superior intellectual or social or economic status
[adj] selected as the best; "an elect circle of artists"; "elite colleges"
ALL VENOMOUS HERPETOCULTURISTS SHOULD BE THE BEST! They gotta know their stuff in the beginning BEFORE getting into the hobby. NO HERPER worth their salt should violate any of the codes I described. AS A COMMUNITY, WE SHOULD TAKE STEPS TO AUTHENTICATE OUR ELITE! WE SHOULD IDENTIFY, TAKE PRIDE IN AND SHARE OUR COMMON VALUES! Much of the community will not respect or abide by those codes listed either. They should be instructed and led or cut off and unassociated with. Many are dragging us down.
The good Codes are a "healthy, disciplined", brainwashing for our little cult (lol). O' here me People of venomousreptiles.org! For so long Ye have rejected the law! How long will Ye continue to reject the law! The Law will come and taketh thy snakes away if Ye don't get ye crap-eth together! Stocketh thy life saving serum! lol
This is why it is necessary to "EXCLUSIFY" the Venomous Herpetoculturist or Hot Keeper. Immoral, unethical, and illegal acts conducted by those who keep venomous reptiles should be condemned by those in the community and unassociated with. Well described values spells integrity to legislatures. Those who can't abide by the CODES, shouldn't be counted amongst us. They are a liability. Exclusify. The Elite isn't condescending. It's a value of respect one holds for themselves, and not a "smug" persona anyone should display to others. Do you get it now, man?
So who is the "would be" hot keeper? Anyone who possesses an interest in venomous reptiles? No. Some interests aren't good candidates. They lack the mental discipline and ability to everso simply "do it the right way".
Through interest, we pursue interest. Through interest we discover. Through discovery, we learn. By learning, we grasp knowledge. By pursuing interest and by applying knowledge, we achieve experience. By applying knowledge to learned experience, we achieve wisdom.
That Yoda Crap applies to the hot keeper.
The wise should instruct the willing, and the experts should instruct the novices. Many seasoned venomous herpetoculturists are very willing to instruct new interests. Our hobby needs this. Nightflight99 mentioned this (mentorship)in his post. I wonder, has the SHHS considered installing a mentorship directory on their site for prospective hot keepers?
The Prospective Venomous Herpetoculturist Candidate
For safety reasons, we value and appreciate experience in this hobby. The Florida model suggests 1000 hours venomous reptile handling apprenticeshp before they are deemed experienced. What about the interest in the other states who outwardly who uses the internet for advice and purchases.......of venomous snakes. Something is needed to guide them in this potentially dangerous, unique, and rewarding interest.
You guys wanna know what I think is a good idea? Well, I'm going to tell you anyway. Here is "The Phantom's" everso wise, and opinionated recommendation for the novice. Tenure at each level is being expressed at absolute minimums.
A NOVICE'S GUIDE APPROACH TO VENOMOUS HERPETOCULTURE
LEVEL 1: (1 year)NONVENOMOUS-Various, general, basic species Leopard Geckos, Burmese Pythons, Lampropeltis, Pituophis, Elaphe, etc, etc, etc, or genera on level 2.
LEVEL 2: (2 years) NONVENOMOUS-Various specialized and potentially aggressive non-venomous herps. Emphasis should be applied on restraint, probagative, and veterinary techniques with various "specialized" genera.Examples: Corallus, Eryx, Epicrates, Aggressive Python, Varanus, Morelia, Masticophis, Phelsuma, Uroplatus, Uromastyx, etc.
The genera selected as examples are noted as "specialized" due to the fact that they are either aggressive, or moderate/high maintenance (w/reference to husbandry), or both. Learn about the natural history and husbandry needs of each before committing to keeping them. Purchasing pairs or breeding groups will likely prove rewarding and enlightening. Breed your herps.
A combination of at least 3 years experience in the above described curricula (LEVEL 1 and 2) is prerequisite to proceeding to "Level 3".
Level 3: (1 Year) Resume application of Level 1, and 2. Seek Mentorship training from an ethical, responsible, and obviously competent handler BEFORE keeping. After 6 months at this level, evaluate your capabilities and your competency with your mentor and perhaps one should begin to consider working with less toxic rear-fanged colubrids (H. gigas, B. dendrophila), and/or less "dangerous" native venomous. In North America, the Copperhead (A. contortrix ssp.) is recommended. Due to snakebite risk, novice hobbyists are advised to keep less toxic, native snakes, located in your area. DO NOT USE VENOMOIDS AS TRAINING METHODS!
Learning emphasis level 3:
Snakebite Protocol
Venom Properties
Venom, Antivenin, and the acquisition of Antivenin
Legalities
Venomous Herpetocultural Values
Assessing Risks
Animal Body Language Evaluation
Restrictive Housing
Restrictive Facility
Tools
Grappling Methods
Bagging
Transport
Intro to Bi, or Tri-nomial nomenclature
etc.
Level 4: (6 months) Fusion of Level 3. Continued Mentorship required. Genera familiarization and Introduction to "real" venomous species. The hobbyist should be able to safely and comfortably handle the listed specimens below on his/her own.
Safer "Remedial" Venomous Colubrids (H. gigas, B. dendrophila)
Lower Toxic North American Venomous (A. contortrix)
Level 5: (6 months) Fusion of level 4. Continued Mentorship required. Genera familiarization and introduction to more advanced, potentially lethal venomous reptiles, such as C. h. atricaudatus, C. adamanteus, and C. scutulatus. Encouraged lesson plans should suggest challenging, SUPERVISED tasks such as:
Raising baby Pygmies
Worming
Assist Feeding
Tease feeding Trimeresurus
etc
(if option is available)
Hobbyists are also advised as they become more comfortable handling aggressive native venomous, to feel competent to entertain the idea of keeping easier, less dangerous exotic venomous. These could include:
Trimeresurus sp.
Tropidolaemus wagleri
Bothriechis sp
These representatives should be considered dangerous, and they are recommended because of their specialized husbandry requirements, and relative ease of handling. They should be handled w/ caution.
(Hobbyists are best advised to spend a combination of NO LESS than 1 year between Level 4 and Level 5, BEFORE they move onto level 6.)
Level 6: (1-3 Years) FOR INTERMEDIATE and ADVANCED KEEPERS - Mentorship required. Antivenin Acquisition process. Envenomated bite from listed genera could result in death or permanent disfigurement. Moderately-Highly Venomous! SEVERE CAUTION REQUIRED!
Trimeresurus sp, Tropidolaemus, Echis, Atheris (NO AV), Aspidelaps sp.(NO AV), Bitis sp., Pseudocerastes, Bothriopsis, smaller Bothrops, Micrurus, Micruroides, Agkistrodon, Crotalus, Daboia, Macrovipera, Deiagkistrodon, Theoletornis, Dispholidus, Causus, Elapsoidea, and some Naja (exceptions are N. melanoleuca, N. haje, ssp., N. nivea, etc.)etc.
Individuals interested in working with Naja are advised to do so with Non-Spitters first, and under supervised mentorship training.
Level 7: ADVANCED ONLY! - Mentorship Required! Highly DANGEROUS! FREQUENT MAINTENANCE! SKILLFUL GRAPPLING TECHNIQUES REQUIRED! HIGHLY VENOMOUS!
Lachesis sp
Larger Bothrops
Naja melanoleuca, Naja haje, Naja nivea
Boulengerina (NO AV)
Pseudohaje (NO AV)
Dendroaspis sp.
Pseudechis sp.
Oxyuranus sp.
Ophiophagus hannah
Bungarus sp
Slowly you pull the training wheels away....
These are just my opinions though. What do you guys think? Is this "structure" or what? I mean, how can you not like it? You can't argue with sound, moral, logic. And that's what we have here today, boys and girls! Sometimes I just sit in "awe" .
Maybe I'll write a book,
-The Phantom
PS Thanks, for the info Scott. I'll look at the info and post my letter this week for criticism.
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RE: NOT VENOM 101
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by Phobos on December 26, 2004
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So much for the "good will" of the season...
Oy vay!! We all fiddle while "Rome Burns"! Time is short and this was such a waste of it. I have enough irons in the fire with the AV bank to waste time on this one.
A bit disgusted at it all,
Al
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RE: NOT VENOM 101
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by Buzztail1 on December 26, 2004
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See The Phantom,
You still don't get it.
Go ahead with your project.
Yes, you have structure.
Yes, you have a plan.
IT IS NOT LAW and hence we need not heed.
IT IS NOT THE SHHS.
Have a blast building your ELITE.
Perhaps most of us will join.
But all of us will remember that when there was nowhere else to go for information or help, there were the simply helpful folk at the SHHS who did not look down on people for their lack of knowledge but helped people gain that knowledge.
Teachers are also an elite. A lower middle income, barely above poverty level elite group of dedicated individuals who struggle to give the entire populace of an ungrateful country the ability to survive in a literate world. There are lots of PhD's out there that look down their noses at elementary school teachers without whom the road to that PhD is sadly missing an all important bridge.
The SHHS position remains unchanged by all your very long verbose posts.
This thread is closing soon.
Try to find another herp society to take over and change, this one isn't it.
Thank you for your participation.
Karl H. Betz
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RE: NOT VENOM 101
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Anonymous post on December 26, 2004
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Karl,
I was answering the questions that Chris asked me. I'm not saying don't teach people and I'm not trying to take over anything. I'm just trying to make "us" better.
2 + 2 = 4
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RE: NOT VENOM 101
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Anonymous post on December 27, 2004
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The Phantom, you said Active venomoiding is a contradiction to responsible animal husbandry. But thats really just your opinion isnt it. There are some that think that making a venomous snake harmless is the responsible thing to do. Who are you to push your rules on them.
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RE: NOT VENOM 101
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Anonymous post on December 28, 2004
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OPINION: "Active venomoiding is a contradiction of responsible husbandry".
FACT: Hack jobs hurt snakes.
FACT: Legitimate adenectomy surgeries performed by a veterinarian using anesthetic still hurts snakes.
Husbandry- a collective term referring to methods of propagation, training, rearing, exercising, feeding, housing, maintenance, controlling, and handling used to promote an environment in which the organism can thrive.
Responsible- Able to make moral or rational decisions on one's own and therefore answerable for one's behavior. Able to be trusted or depended upon; reliable. Based on or characterized by good judgment or sound thinking
FACT: "Active venomoiding is a contradiction to responsible husbandry."
Venomoids should not be viewed as safe. Responsible "Venomous Herpetocultural" husbandry methods emphasize handling. Because of the venomous component, experienced and cautious handling must be emphasized.
FACT: Strict, uncompromising, protocol grants the keeper safety.
Can these claims be disputed?
-The Phantom
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