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RE: Help Identifying the Viper that sunday bite me
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by Cro on May 23, 2007
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Jano, the venom in a new born snake is drop for drop the same as the venom an adult snake has. The new born snake has a much smaller amount of venom available though.
You are lucky that you were not bitten by a larger snake, as it could have delivered a much larger dose of venom.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Help Identifying the Viper that sunday bite me
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by Chris_Harper on May 23, 2007
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If you are going to be bitten, you'd probably rather be bitten by the baby than the adult. A retrospective study at Loma Linda showed that "the larger the snake, the worse the bite".
CH
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RE: Help Identifying the Viper that sunday bite me
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by GREGLONGHURST on May 23, 2007
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A neonate like that has venom which is as toxic as that of an adult. It has a smaller quantity, but has not yet learned to regulate the amount it uses in one defensive bite. Baby snakes will often dump a pretty near full load at one time. Lucky for you it is so small.
~~Greg~~
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RE: Help Identifying the Viper that sunday bite me
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by CAISSACA on May 24, 2007
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Hmmm... sorry to be a pain, but judging by the shape of the blotches as far as they can be seen, and especially by the heavily speckled ventrals, I would venture to say that that snake is Crotalus ravus, not C. scutulatus salvini, which, according to Campbell & Lamar, has an immaculate light belly. Crotalus ravus also lacks facial stripes.
Jano, do you have any photos that show the top of the head? That would soon clarify things, since C. ravus has large shields whereas C. scutulatus has much smaller scales on top of the head.
Cheers,
WW
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RE: Help Identifying the Viper that sunday bite me
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by Cro on May 24, 2007
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Wolfgang, you are not being a pain at all, LOL ! I was hoping others would weigh in on the identification of the snake also, as Crotalus ravus also came to mind as a prime candidate. I was actually expecting some of our Texas friends to add their comments. Trying to identify a snake from a single posted photo can be quite challenging at times.
The lack of a facial stripe is common in C.s.salvini, and in C.r.ravus, although we had ravus at the AZP back in the late 70`s that did have facial striping.
My memory of the coloration of the young ravus we had born then does not match Jano`s photos very well, but ravus is highly variable and and so are ancient memories, LOL !
Jano stated that he almost died from the bite, which could have caused me to lean more toward salvini than ravus, however, riding down from a volcano on a atv after being bitten, and the time to medical care could have also been a factor. Perhaps ravus also has a very potent venom.
Now that Jano has posted additional photos, we can see the the darker borders on the blotches that is also known from ravus. As far as the immaculate light belly, ravus does have that, but according to Campbell & Lamar, so do the extreme southern populations of salvini.
If we had photos of the top of the head, that would absolutly clear things up, for C. ravus would have the large shields, and C. scutulatus would have smaller scales, as you have stated.
Wolfgang, you are right that the snake could very well be Crotalus r. ravus, and Jano`s additional photos tend to support that based on the shape of the blotches and the black outlining of them.
If Jano does still have the snake, and could take a clear photo of the top of the head, the identification could be quickly cleared up.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Help Identifying the Viper that sunday bite me
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by Viperlady on May 27, 2007
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Hola Jano, vaya sustote que te llevaste no?
Ok, just an introduction in spanish for my paisano, well, I live in Mexico City and have been working with reptiles for a long time now. I agree with Cro in the ID of this specimen, however it has become very rare to find scutulatus in this area. In fact most of the species found in the Izta-popo area are C. Triseriatus, C. Aquilus, C. Ravus, (previously known as sistrurus)C. Intermedius and C. molossus, but as Cro said, the coloration on the face does not correspond to any of the other species but C. s. salvini, since the C. s. scutulatus wouldn't normally be present in this area.
Now, about the venom... all snakes are born with their venom glands completely developed and the venom from an adult and from a baby are exactly the same. The difference lies in the amount each can inject in one bite. If this one would have been an adult with the capacity to inject a larger amount of venom, you would surely still be in the hospital, since scutulatus venom is supposed to be one of the most complex and agressive.
Espero te encuentres bien y cuidado con esas excursiones. Procura utilizar botas con casquillo y recubrimientos de metal laterales y no confiarte en los montículos de zacate donde normalmente se esconden.
Sorry, guys, just couldn't help it, had to write this in spanglish. It's really exciting to finally find someone in the forum who's less than 1000 miles away...LOL
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RE: Help Identifying the Viper that sunday bite me
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by Viperlady on May 27, 2007
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Well, just a further consideration about the coloration and size of this baby.
Normally, any sub-species of ravus would be yellowish, even being a neonate, and actually the color of the photo seems to be quite accurate based on the color seen on Jano's hands. And if in fact this was a neonate, a ravus would be quite smaller.
I'd still place my bet on C.s.salvini... and well, if it could be possible to upload photos showing the pattern on the back and the upper part of the head, that would be great...
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RE: Help Identifying the Viper that sunday bite me
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by Jano on May 27, 2007
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Hola Viperlady! It's also Great for me to hear that you, a mexican knows so much about Snakes here in Mexico.
Don't you think that there's a lack of information about snakes in Mexico?
Because let me tell you something, I studied in a pretty good School and I have always read a lot about animal's, and I also see a lot of the Discovery channel and the animal planet channel, and I'm sure that a long time ago I read that in this Part of the country there were no venomus Snakes around.
Thats why I grabbed that little snake.
I really think that it would be a good idea to make like a campaing about this, It just might save some lives. I just can't Imagine how many of this Snakes are around this area, and there's not a single place in the area where you can find the Antiviperym!
I was Very Lucky because I had my cell phone and from that far away place from the city, I called a Cousin that happens to be a Doctor, so I gave him time to Find in three diferent hospitals the amount of antiviperym that I was going to need, also to read more about Snake bites in the internet.
Because It might sound strange but, I was the Only one bitten by a Snake in that Hospital,ever!
And now, knowing how many Venomous snakes live around here, its odd.
So I have been picking up snakes since I was a Kid, unfortunatly this time, the only time that I find a Venomous Snake It Bites me, not only once, twice! first in the right hand, slightly, and it fell on the ground, so I tryed to pick it up again, and again it bite me. This second time she really grabbed me good, And I...........was thinking that it wasn't venomuos. Sooo I took my time in taking her off my hand, this so I did no harm to it.
I even saw her inyecting the venom by moving her mouth back and forth. I know Iknow........... And yes I was an Idiot, but Really I grew up thinking that at this altitude there were no Venomous Snakes. And Im sorry but those are the only photos of the Snake.
And one last question? I Know I was very Lucky Because I didn't had life threatening sympthoms, and I also had no Skin damage like the pictures that I have seen here. But I still have pain in the joint's in my hand and in my arm, And I have read about the venom a lot, but I can't find what causes this pain.
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