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feeding problems
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by codeman on July 4, 2008
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my copperhead is going off and on f/t mice. he will eat f/t for awhile and then wont take them for a few weeks so i have to get live which is expensive from petco. has anyone else ever had this problem and if so do you know any tricks to get it to stay on f/t? ive tried every trick i know.
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RE: feeding problems
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by Cro on July 4, 2008
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Cody, many of my copperheads and pygmy rattlesnakes and eastern diamondbacked rattlesnakes do the same thing.
I think that frozen / thawed animals are often lacking in the scent / motion / and temperature cues that attract snakes to eat.
Next feeding, give this a try: Put about a half tablespoon of Sea Salt (not table salt) in a soup bowl of warm water and dissolve it. Then soak the mouse in that until it is warm. Then quickly damp dry it with a paper towel, and offer it with tongs to the snake. The salt will often trigger a feeding response, and in coppeheads, they often bite and hold onto salted mice.
Hope this helps. It has worked for me many times.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: feeding problems
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by 23bms on July 4, 2008
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That is an interesting idea, though, what is there in "Sea Salt" that isn't in Morton's Iodized Table Salt? (Some weird 'carcinogen' chemicals no doubt.) This reminds me of those idiotic recipes that claim failure, abject public humiliation and eternal damnation if you don't use the 'proper' specialty salt, usually 'Sea Salt" or some other esoteric substance that is only available in pricey New York yuppie stores. (Still a bit cranky, as you can tell. Sorry.)
Be that as it may, this brought to mind an ongoing issue that I am having with my Calloselasma rhodostoma. I have had this ... thing ... for about four years now. In forty years of keeping hots, fifty of keeping snakes if you count pre-hot days, I have never had anything as unpredictable. One week, after shedding it eats like a pig. Twelve months later, after shedding and under identical temperature and humidity conditions, it won't look at anything for weeks on end. I have analyzed every environmental variable I can think of, but nothing works. This week it eats. The next twenty-five weeks (literally) it looks at me like I'm trying to poison it. Then, for no apparent reason it eats like a normal animal for six weeks, then skips two months, then eats for three weeks, then skips six months, then eats for one week, then skips three months, ... you get the idea. There is no discernible seasonal, temperature, humidity, shedding, feeding or any other pattern. I have never force fed it (I don't believe in it, I consider force feeding the last refuge of fools). I never handle it. It has numerous hides (which it uses - needless to say - unpredictably). It refuses to behave rationally. In many ways, I admire it. It is totally recalcitrant. In certain ways I can identify with it. I just wish the damn thing would eat when it was supposed to. (Thank Darwin for ophidian garbage cans. There are plenty of rejected mice to dispose of.)
jrb
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RE: feeding problems
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by 23bms on July 4, 2008
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I forgot to mention, KOSHER SALT. Apparently being blessed and certified by a Rabbi makes a difference.
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RE: feeding problems
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by theemojohnm on July 4, 2008
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I have to say that being very non-optimistic about John's sea salt trick, I tried it on an Eastern Massassagua rattlesnake, AND HE ATE IMEDIETLY!
I have even since got a few neonate Cantils eating (relatives of your copperhead).
I now swear by this technique! I can allmost assure you your copper will take the f/t after being briefly soaked in this warm salt solution!
My E. Massy seemed to investigate the mouse more after being soaked in the salt, rather than just ignore it completely like he was.
This leads me to believe that the salt may bring out some of the natural scent that seems to be absent from rodents after being frozen. I also spoke with several keepers who seem to believe frozen rodents killed with Co2 are not eaten as readily as freshly killed or rodents frozen that have been killed by means of snaping of the neck, ect. So the salt may help to "mask" the "dead smell" associated with Co2 killed mice, which many keepers seem to agree.
Also, when speaking about this technique with him, my massy did hold onto the mouse (and he used to spit at the first sign of movement). I guess Johns theroy is that the snake holds because the mouse smell/tastes more "alive" because the salt replaces body fluids lost during freezing....
I I believe the reason for not using table-salt is because of the additives (iodine etc.) that are added to table salt for human consumption. Sea salt isnt all that much more anyways...be safe..
Like John mentioned above, its a combination of things that trigger a feeding response, heat, smell, movement, and taste if they tend to spit.
A warm soaked salty mouse seems to smell more like what live rodents SHOULD smell like to the snake, and the heat attracts the attention of your pit-vipers, add a little movement from the tongs and most of the conditions are met.
the salt seems to trigger a hold to, because I may bring out the taste and replace fluids in the mouse, so even if the snake strikes and releases, he will be more likely to strike again and hold.
LOL.. Am I getting all this right John???? LOL..
Although John could probably explain this much better than me, I have used it probably 5 times so far with a 100% difference in feeding response.!!!
Anyway, I CAN ASSURE YOU THIS TECHNIQUE CAN PRODUCE AMAZING RESULTS.
Good Luck,
~John.
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RE: feeding problems
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by 23bms on July 4, 2008
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I am certainly willing to TRY it (in the case of my idiot Callo). However, what is the chemical difference? I suppose I should Google it but it's late and I'm still suffering from the last wretched bug my wife brought home. Darwin help me if the Ebola virus hits the Binghampton ERs.
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RE: feeding problems
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by Buzztail1 on July 5, 2008
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For what it's worth, last year (or maybe the year before even) someone brought up a native pit viper feeding problem and they were advised to soak the rodent in chicken bullion and then pat dry it (pat it with a towel until it was dry). They were very pleased with the results and have apparently had no further problems.
Chicken bullion is VERY salty.
So, I would have to say that John's recommendation is about as good as it gets. Sea Salt has less additives. It doesn't need to be Kosher or anything else that is fancy and more expensive. Just as few chemicals as possible.
R/
Karl H. Betz
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RE: feeding problems
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by Cro on July 5, 2008
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I am happy to hear that the sea salt technique is working for others.
I like sea salt because it does not contain the many addatives that are permitted in table salts by the FDA. Check out this site to see all the junk that the FDA allows in your salt shaker:
http://www.saltinstitute.org/additivetable.html
This is a good reason for humans to avoid the commercial salts, also.
Sea Salt contains more of the natural trace minerals that are present in the sea water that is evaporated to form the salt. Sea salts from different areas have different tasts because of this.
The only thing that bothers me some, is that the salt flats where they rake up the sea salt in piles as it dries are often flown over by sea gulls. I wonder just how much sea gull poop makes it into the finished product, LOL !
Many KOSHER SALTS contains an anti caking compound. I wonder if that Rabbi also blessed the Yellow prussiate of soda (sodium ferrocyanide decahydrate)in his salt ???
In humans, the only danger from eating Sea Salts that do not have added Iodine (some do have it added), is that you need a certain amount of Iodine in your diet. However, it does not have to come from salt, it is abundant in many sea vegatables like kelp. Sushi Wrappers, which are made of Kombu Seaweed contain a good amount of Iodine.
As to the CO2 that is used by many mouse breeding outfits to kill their mice, I think there is the possibility that this causes a "death smell" in the frozen mice, due to hypoxia and rapid changes in the blood chemistry pH. However, that would have to be proven by experimental trials. We have discussed this possibility here in the past. Right now, it is just a unproven theory.
Anyway, the main thing, is that the "salt technique" is working for some folks with snakes that are problem feeders. It probably will not work in all cases. However, it has worked in enough cases to make me think it is valid. So far, I have about 25 accounts of folks who have used this technique with success.
JRB, why dont you give the Sea Salt technique a try next time you feed that Calloselasma rhodostoma ? Worse that can happen is that it will not work, and you will have a pound of great tasting sea salt for your table, LOL.
Try to buy a sea salt that does not have added Iodine though. You do not have to go to one of the Yuppie Stores to find it though, the Alessi Sea Salt from the Mediterranean is available in Publix markets at a very reasonable cost. It has no additives or Iodine, and it even keeps Kosher, LOL !
Also, what Karl said about using Chicken Bullion makes a lot of sense. Those would be salty, and would have a chicken flavor. They often also contain Monosodium glutamate (MSG) that is the sodium salt of the amino acid glutamic acid. This chemical is known to be a flavor enhancer, and to give foods a savory taste. While not good for humans, it just might improve the feeding response of snakes. Sure would be worth a try.
Best Regards John Z
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RE: feeding problems
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by 23bms on July 5, 2008
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I'll give Sea Salt a try. Might try chicken bullion also as I already have some. The Callo is healthy and body weight is relatively normal, maybe a touch on the light side but certainly not fashion model thin. I think it just enjoys being obstinate and difficult.
jrb
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