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RE: keeping your own antivenom....realistic?
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by Mustangrde1 on August 22, 2006
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Karl.
You know ill never argue the importance of talking to your local Dr's and Hospital and having a good working relationship with them and even aiding where you can...
It is unfortuantely a major problem that KEEPERS need to accept responcibility for... We keep them We need to inform but it goes with the Education you spoke of earlier.
The Zoo's im aware of the financial situatiions but you and I both know many do not accept private keepers or thier legitamacy and in fact shun them... When in fact a pooling of resources and money would benifit both... You can not tell me you have not seen that attitude from zoo's
It is something They and keepers should do... You know the price on exotic AV is dirt cheap and ten keepers pooling with the zo will more than amply cover the cost. If a single vial of Saimar is 50 dollars " and i beleive thats high I just am not looking it up at this point" then 10 keepers buying 50 vials would be 150$ per keeper. Why in the name of all that rattles or slithers would they not?
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RE: keeping your own antivenom....realistic?
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by Cro on August 22, 2006
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As far as Karl`s comment ``As for sympathizing with zoos, I have spoken to keepers and curators about why they don't keep various species that people are interested in. The fact that zoos have very small budgets and can't afford to keep many species simply because they cannot afford the antivenom is something that they don't widely publish. If they can't afford it for themselves, why in the world would they offer to buy it for someone else?``
A couple of weeks ago, I was talking with the former Curator of Reptiles of Atlanta Zoo, and he told me that he had to just stop keeping Indian Cobras on display at the Zoo, although they were something almost everyone wanted to see, because he got tired of taking AV to the airport at 3:00 a.m. for some yahoo`s bite. It took months to replace the AV stocks, and there was no budget to pay for the replacements when they were depleted. This created a hazard for the keepers at the zoo, who had to work with snakes with no AV available, as it had all been sent off to save some red-neck`s life. Back then, it was mostly Indian Cobras that were responsible for most of the exotic vemomous bites in this country, as they were readily available on the market, and often purchased by inexperienced keepers who managed to get bitten while showing off their pets. So H.H. solved the problem by just not having Indian Cobras at the zoo anymore.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: keeping your own antivenom....realistic?
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by thenovice on August 22, 2006
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many excellent points are addressed here but there remains two factors that prevent this from happening:
1) many keepers are unfortunatly stupid as hell and think "why pay $150 when i don't 'HAVE TO' pay anything?" even though this may save their lives one day, it is unlikly to happen especialy with those who think that they will never be bitten.
2) people are simply lazy and don't want to go through all of the trouble of having a doctor prescribe the AV, gathering your peers and ordering the stuff. difficulty to obtain antivenom regardless of the cost is a big factor in why people aren't getting it.
best regards,
chris hartmann
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A/V Banks (A Life Saver)
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by ALA_snake33 on August 22, 2006
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Don’t get me wrong here, I am not by any means saying that a Venomous Keeper should not have a Reliable way to obtain A/V for the Species they Keep, and have Snake Bite Protocols on hand. The only thing I am saying here, is that an Implemented Law to make Venomous Keepers have their own A/V on hand would be one step closer to a Ban.
I am in full favor of A/V Banks, I think they are the BEST thing that could ever be done for the Venomous Community. I only wish I had the Funds to get the Ball Rolling on one for the Southeastern USA. If I could find enough People to help, and could find a Doctor to help plane such an endeavor, I would Jump at the possibility.
Now, if we as Venomous Keepers would do something like this, I think it could and would Save our Hobby. I would just hate to see our State Governments put such a Law into effect, and watch it Kill off so many Good Safe Keepers, that just cant afford to Buy their own A/V.
In my personal opinion, most Venomous Keepers would be willing to Pay up to $200.00 a Year to be sure they have their Life Line. This is better than dishing out $5,000-$10,000 every 3-5 Years for you A/V “wouldn’t you agree”?
I closing, I think that all Venomous Keepers should Start thinking about Founding more A/V Banks in this Country. If we do this, it could solve a lot of the problems our Hobby is suffering today.
Just more of my $0.02 (I seem to have a lot of it) “LOL”.
Be Safe Ya’ll, Happy Herping : Wally
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RE: keeping your own antivenom....realistic?
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by Buzztail1 on August 22, 2006
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Scott,
At one time I would have had to agree with you about the attitude of zookeepers.
In the past three years I have seen a much different attitude and I have been talking to many more zookeepers than I used to.
As has been said, they are unhappy with the irresponsible people who get bitten out of negligence. They take their antivenom in the wee hours of the morning to the airport just the same.
Most of them have nothing against the people who keep like you and I, who have protocols and safety standards and practice careful husbandry.
Even the ones who are known for their outspoken position against private keeping that I have talked with have told me that it is not the responsible keeper that they desire to stop.
They just don't know how to weed out the morons.
Karl
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RE: keeping your own antivenom....realistic?
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by Mustangrde1 on August 23, 2006
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Karl.
Weeding out the morons is by Licensing and Permitting... It works... Problem is this industry / hobby can not get off its collective butt to work togeather as a group. I do not want to turn this topic but lets face it if you bring up permits you get a scream from non-venomous keepers that they shouldnt have to do this or that and even our own brothers and sisters ive seen cry about permits... Then you have all the bans that have taken place...Had members of this hobby all got togeather and stood up and been heard probably would not have been bans but permitting systems...
Well before i really go off.. If zoo's mentality has changed then I suggest we contact our nearest one and work with them... lets face it if they keep 20 hots and need AV and keepers in the area keep the same things its only in everyones interest to by the AV pool the resource... Instead of a 20,000$ AV bill for the zoo split it all and get extra so even in a severe envenomation you still have stock on hand while waiting for the replacement from the bite.
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RE: keeping your own antivenom....realistic?
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by erk on August 23, 2006
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Ok, I've read all of the posts here. I am on the fence about individuals keeping AV for exotics, for native species it is simply out of the question, CroFab is made by a major US pharmaceutical company and is controlled by the FDA, therefor it is next to impossible to get and is "usually" available within 500 miles of almost anywhere, of course there are exceptions. With that being said, the AV for exotic species (SAIMR, Thai Red Cross, etc) are not controlled by the FDA, I do not know the legallity on the processes of getting it. I think an anti-venom bank would be an excellent idea if it can be done. I would even be willing to form a non-profit organization and coordinate everything. I have a large and varied enoough collection to where it would benefit me alone. I am not exacly centrally located (Louisiana) but not on either coast, the northern states would be the biggest problem. I am 15 minutes from the airport. With help from everyone I think it could be possible....how much would we need....what specific A/V to keep? That's all questions to answer. I will put together a survey and post a link to it on here and see what kind of results I get. I think it is at least worth looking into and I don't think it is stepping on anyone's toes as Al, Chuck and the rest of the guys down at Miami-Dade are in the business of saving lives and not making money. I would even have to enlist their help and offer them access to it if needed. This would be a donation based organization and the amount of donations will directly effect the amount of AV on hand.
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RE: keeping your own antivenom....realistic?
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by Cro on August 23, 2006
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Setting up AV banks using Zoos would be a logistical nightmare, as Zoos are part of state and local governments. Do you really want government folks with the mentality of postal workers involved in controlling the AV bank at a Zoo ?
By far, the best solution would be regional AV banks, that could charge keepers a yearly membership fee.
Speaking of such things, what is the status of the AV bank in the NE that AL was working to set up? Is it still in the works, or has it stalled, and if so, for what reason?
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: keeping your own antivenom....realistic?
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by Venomjunkie on August 23, 2006
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im not going to argue for either side of this but i would also like to know what is going on with the AV bank in the northeast. i live in PA and i think that would be awesome if someone started one somewhere near here. can anyone give us an update on that?
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RE: keeping your own antivenom....realistic?
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by rickyduckworth on August 30, 2006
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1) make antivenom available AND affordable and people will buy it
2) implement a system so that if Mr. X isn't bitten, instead of wasting $10,000 he can simply trade it in or be set up to sell it to a needy party, etc.....why waste it? efficiency is a big part of most things the government DOESN'T dabble in......
3) how many "keep" antivenom but don't "keep" enough? what good will antivenom do in small amounts.....would you be happy with a partial blood transfusion?
i still think that personal antivenom stashes are ridiculous......same with blood......institutions set up to cater to those incidents are what's needed.......it has to keep longer, it has to work in smaller amounts, etc........nowadays people like to think that humans are so advanced, but in reality, we're not and we have a ton to learn......the antivenom world just isn't there yet........when it IS "there", it will be affordable, practical and way more cost efficient......i'd spend $1000 to insure my life against any possible bite from an animal i'm keeping....i'll die before i spend $10,000 on stuff i may never need........i'd like to NOT be in the papers either, so if i quit posting and you hear about a corpse found in an attic somewhere, that's me......instead of being the next "don't keep hots" headline, i crawled up there and died.....
and something else......"snake handlers" are associated with religion so they get a free pass and that's just so hypocritical that it's almost the american thing to do.......those guys are FAR more likely to be bitten, and since proof of any god or anything similar simply does not exist (definitely not in a scientific way), they're no better than the rest of us.......their association makes it "ok" for them to be nailed, for them to be irresponsible, for them to not keep antivenom........when they die, it's not the end of the world for anyone else.....around here, we have the holiness sect....they go to the eye doctor but no other doctor......common that a 40 year old dies from pneumonia or something similar.....if someone too lazy to go the doctor just dies, then it's a tragedy due to them NOT being associated with a religion...
again, i put my energy into not being bitten......shit happens, but it's not guaranteed.....i take it second by second......people just don't put enough faith in themselves and that's a shame.....they're the ones who get tagged
you can only argue that antivenom is necessary if you are forseeing the bite happening........you're already screwed in that case......just prevent it, you should be in total control......you can't make some people happy though because they like to "be prepared for anything" but in reality they're just as vulnerable as the rest of us.......they're hypocritical
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