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RE: You guys seem to get a kick out of badmouthing
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by LarryDFishel on November 21, 2006
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Adam didn't mention HOW he sold the snakes, but the gentleman who sold him the forest cobra posted on another forum saying that the guy apparently drove cross-country to buy one snake from him in person, in a state that did not require a permit. In that situation, the seller probably does not bear any CRIMINAL legal responsibility because the sale was technically legal and then the buyer illegally imported the snake and possessed it (probably illegally possessing it in several other states along the way I would guess). CIVIL liability might be a different issue though...
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RE: You guys seem to get a kick out of badmouthing
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by bschott on November 21, 2006
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I remember reading that post from Jeff, the seller of the forest cobra, how Mike showed up in person to pick it up.
However even if that were the case, I would still think that the seller has an obligation to treat a sale like any other dangerous purchase. Two forms of id (one has to be photo), and possibly a thumbprint. Heck you need that just to cash a check at a Wells-Fargo bank. Make photocopies of the IDs for your records of the sale.
Asking for an ID would have at least alerted Jeff that the buyer was from out of state, and possible that the buyer may not be able to legally own the snake. All Jeff needed was a quick Google search on the laws mike's state had for Hots, then asked if Mike had the permit.
If no, then the sale could have ended right there.
The seller still has some respossiblity to the hot community that was just given another black-eye by this event. We can quable over who was to blame (they both were), but the entire community was hurt by this. We all have seen the ignorant comments made by the soccermoms on the newspaper article.
The seller may bear some crimianal legal responsibility as he didn't at least cover himself with a basic check on the buyer. Civil liablility is a definate possibility.
Another interesting fact: Lets say I have a permit in my state to care for and maintain venomous snake. I decide to go to a reptile show where I was asked to do a presentation on the Prairie Rattlesnake (which is the only native hot in my state).
As I am traveling to the show, I am pulled over for speeding in a state I am just passing through to get to the show. The officer is told that I am going to a reptile show to give a presentation and being co-operative I tell him I have a couple of Hots in proper containers in the back of the SUV.
If the state I was stopped in has a ban on venomous snake ownership (total or permit-only) the officer can arrest me for transporting a dangerous animal over state lines, regardless of the permit I have from my state saying I can own and care for the snakes, and have my animals confiscated and/or destroyed.
Talked with a state highway patrol officer about this the other day and that was his words on the subject.
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RE: You guys seem to get a kick out of badmouthing
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by bschott on November 21, 2006
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I would think that Hot sellers would want to keep very detailed records in any event. Legally, I would want my back covered in case anything ever happened involving one of my sales.
If there was a case where a person bought a snake from a seller/vendor and then used that snake in a murder or some kind of attack/revenge plot, (not to far fetched as a few gun related crimes can have the weapon traced back to a gunshow or private sale), I would want to be able to give the police the copies of the id's and the guy's thumbprint.
If I sold hots and someone ever came back to sue me for selling to them, I would want to be able to show the judge/jury that I made sure that legally the person was able to own the snake, and had been able to answer all the care questions correctly.
Just makes sense to have all your bases covered.
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RE: You guys seem to get a kick out of badmouthing
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by Cro on November 21, 2006
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Brian, you stated that "If the state I was stopped in has a ban on venomous snake ownership (total or permit-only) the officer can arrest me for transporting a dangerous animal over state lines, regardless of the permit I have from my state saying I can own and care for the snakes, and have my animals confiscated and/or destroyed. Talked with a state highway patrol officer about this the other day and that was his words on the subject."
Well, this may or may not be true, depending on the reciprocity laws and wildlife laws of different states. Also, I would not take the legal advise of a highway patrol officer, as cops have been shown to often not understand the state laws very well, and many think they are "legal" experts. It is their job to "catch" law breakers, but it is the job of the judicial system to "cook" the law breakers.
On a different note, I see that you have "jumped into the forum here with a lot of new posts." I look forward to reading more of your ideas on venomous reptile keeping. However, I see that you have not filled out any of your profile except for your name.
I would suggest that you fill in more of your profile so that folks here can get to know a little more about you and your background.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: You guys seem to get a kick out of badmouthing
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by thedude on November 21, 2006
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Brian, there is the 4th Amendment of the Constitution of the United State you know! If a cop pulled you for speeding, the officer still has no P.C. (probable cause) to search your vehicle (unless you are wearing your rattler as a hat). As you stated in your hypothetical you told the cop you had the snake (5th Amendment can apply here). Just don't tell the cop and he has no P.C.
The dude
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RE: You guys seem to get a kick out of badmouthing
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by LarryDFishel on November 21, 2006
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You are absolutely correct, HOWEVER...the U.S. Supreme Count has (completely erroneously) ruled in recent years that since the contents of your car are are not in your "home" they are not subject to 4th amendment protections. That's completely nuts, but you won't win that argument in court unless the state constitution or laws of the state you're in are more specific. It isn't always enough to be right...
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RE: You guys seem to get a kick out of badmouthing
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by kacz on November 21, 2006
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Although “ignorance is no defense” I doubt that an individual merchant, in a legal state, would be indicted by another state. It’s all up to the prosecutors and the Attorney General’s office. The results of the sale must be particularly horrific for them to try. A good faith sale in another legal state would be too difficult to have a jury condemn. The prosecutor’s best bang for the buck would be against the trafficker who willingly brought the illegal snakes into the state. This is my opinion, based on very little fact!
I do agree that keeping your butt covered with paper work is a good idea. Ever since some disasters like the Hyatt Regency walkway collapse, engineers have been required to keep a detailed account of all transactions. This is not to assess liability, but to confirm proper communication. The other guy can lie all he wants, as long as you can document those lies and exhibit good faith on your part, you should be okay.
Paul M. Kaczmarczik
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RE: You guys seem to get a kick out of badmouthing
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by bschott on November 21, 2006
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Cro,
Filled out my profile but I am by no means an expert. The closest I can come to ownership of a Hot is a Hognose. Even false water cobras are banned from private ownership in my state. I am book smart on some hot snake species but that doesn't mean I would ever feel comfortable handling these animals. I know my limits. Some may laugh at the fact I would rather rather view theses animals from afar and leave the handling to the experianced experts than try to get a permit and own my own, but I do not have the hands-on experiance to do so. No matter how much I would love to have a Bitis Nasicornis or Echis, I am not willing to risk my life or the snake's life with my inexperiance.
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RE: You guys seem to get a kick out of badmouthing
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by Cro on November 21, 2006
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Brian, thanks for filling out your profile and welcome to the SHHS forums.
It really does not matter if you keep venomous reptiles or not, it is the interest in them that matters.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: You guys seem to get a kick out of badmouthing
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by rabbitsmcgates on November 22, 2006
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You people. Jerry sold the forest cobra to "the guy" at Jerry's home in Virginia and not in North Carolina as he states on that website. Why is he lieing about it? I think you can guess it must be illegal for him to have done so in Virginia.
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