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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by JHarrison on November 5, 2009
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Cro,
Chicken eggs still come up but the problem appears to be that it takes to many eggs to make enough antibodies. This would be the same problem with a human antivenom as well and the damage that occurs to donor animals over time.
As far as Crofab goes it is not a bad product but has a few issues like expense and amount needed. The Mexican product works well but also has a few issues. The fact is that snakebite is not a big enough money maker to come up with much better treatments. Also the donor animals have antibodies but are not truly immune to a large dose. I have seen donor animals with open sores and also die from a dose. Another issue on producing human antivenom how many people would it take to make enough to treat a bite. Past studies show that it is not an effective method.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Kingetula on November 5, 2009
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Learning question:
If they can protect dogs before they get bit, I'm guessing Humans could be protected as well one day. Curious how that research is going?
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by stopgetinpopped on November 5, 2009
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As of June at the Venom Conference It was the consensus of the Veterinarians and other venom experts in attendance that the rattlesnake vaccine has been shown to do no harm but also that it does not seem to do any good. Vaccinated dogs still require treatment and also die at the same percentage level as dogs without the vaccine.
Which is not a surprise really....
Cheers!
T-
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by AquaHerp on November 5, 2009
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There are tests underway to work on better anti-venoms to offer. CroFab, as Jim indicated, is a good product, but not without its flaws. I don't know that any treatment or medication is not without its flaws. CroFab tends to work its way out of the system quite rapidly due to the small molecule size. This makes the risk or recurrence a reality. Of course the equine based serum has its issues as well.
If I had to sum it up I'd say that there is more information and evidence to lead us to believe that repeated exposure to venom, be it straight from the tap or through SI leads to a sensitivity to the venom more so than an immunity. In that respect, a bite could be even more dangerous to the SI'er because of the risk of anaphylactic shock.
Once again, this debate will not be settled here. Nor do I see it being settled in the lab any time soon.
Immunizing against snakebite would be great, nobody is arguing that. But to what end? If I am working the fields in Thailand and immunize myself against let's say Naja siamensis, that’s wonderful. What happens when I step on a Naja kouthia? Daboia siamensis? Calloselasma rhodostoma? Where does it end? The tragedy of snakebite in these areas or high mortality is not the ineffectiveness or issues with antivenom, it is the lack of medical care and the ability to get to that care in a timely fashion. To say we are going to provide them with the vaccine against snakebite sounds good on the surface. However, I can think of about a dozen pre-existing vaccines that these folks desperately need that never makes it to them. It's being looked at in the wrong perspective.
My 2 cents for the day.
DH
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by venominme on November 5, 2009
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CroFab differs from the Wyeth polyvalent in that it is not whole immunoglobulin cells. The Y shaped whole immunoglobulin is broken into the stems of the Y shape, (the Fc part which is discarded) and the two tips of the Y shape, which are the Fab (Fragment-antigen binding, that’s where Fab comes from). Those tips are where the antigen binds in lock and key fashion to neutralize the venom. These tiny sheep cell fragments are very quickly eliminated from the body, often as the effects of envenomation are still going on, so sometimes you have to get more antivenom several hours in to keep up and complete the treatment. The advantage of this is that the Fc fragments were thought to be associated with allergic reactions, and simple math is that the risk is reduced by one third (one of the three fragments is removed). One added risk, is the enzyme used to cleave the fragments means people with allergy to papain, chymopapain, papaya extracts or bromelain, are just as likely to have a reaction to CroFab. The facts are that the whole IgG antivenom was more effective because it was not eliminated from the body so fast and able to neutralize more venom in one (no pun intended) shot. I personally believe that the Wyeth polyvalent that was made from the venoms of the fer de lance, cascabel, and eastern and western diamondback was a better all around poly mix than CroFabs mix of western diamondback, eastern diamondback, Mojave and cotton mouth. I think there is some work that can be done to produce a better polyvalent, which might be as simple as adding the broad banded copperhead to the CroFab mix, for example. There are some broad concepts here, not exactly a perfect tutorial or anything. It’s simple stuff you can look up on the internet if you’re into it. What’s this got to do with SI? I’m agreeing that there is much room for improvement in the way bites are treated, antivenoms are developed and SI can potentially contribute to perhaps developing a whole human IgG vaccine with extremely little allergic potential. It’s closer than talking about the moon!
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by pictigaster1 on November 5, 2009
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Fact cro fab has no affect on copperhead bite it does not workat all on pictigaster .It has a more complex venom than other copperheads and in fact is more toxic....Now that said it is up to the si people to work a new more friendly immage of si to the herp community as a whole.There is a big picture and milking a snake and getting bit hurts us cleaning a cage and getting bit hurts us no drinking and si ing there should be a fine or something LOL .It is us who seek recignition to the world.The other side needs to prove nothing. WE MUST BE RESPONSIBLE IN ALL ASPECTS AND PROCEDURES TO BE HEARD OR WE LAY IN OBSCURITY FOR LIFE. MY 2 CENTS,Archie
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Nakita on November 5, 2009
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Archie,
Can you elaborate on that statement? I have read fro several sources that Crofab is indeed effective against Copperhead bites. The difference is in the dosage.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by pictigaster1 on November 5, 2009
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Personal experience it does not work on me and the doses I would guess on a bad bite would be 40 vials or more.IT was made for a fer snakes snake venoms are a set of complex peptides and protiens venom used to make crofab are un simmular.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Nakita on November 5, 2009
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Archie,
I am not trying to antagonize you in any way but virtually everything I have read as well as heard from leading professionals states that Crofab is effective against Agkistrodon envenomation.
Did your attending physician seem perplexed that the serum did not work for your bite? How many vials were administered? Did they document this so that it may be shared with the manufacturer?
Sorry to ask so many questions but this interests me tremendously since it appears to be effective in victims ranging from toddler through elderly.
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