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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Cro on November 4, 2009
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It really is a interesting thread.
And, for once, it has not stalled early on due to personal attacks.
If everyone could avoid the name calling, this thread could provide some really interesting insights.
Heck, we might even have some SI folks who would work with some of the labs out there, to provide research and statistics.
We have come close to having to shut it down, but, what is amazing, is that it has gone 8 pages, and is still running.
Perhaps, if folks from both sides of this issue continue to work together, we let it continue, and actually come up with some educational information.
After all, the goal from both sides, is surviving a snake bite.
It is just that some folks have chosen to go about it in different ways.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by pictigaster1 on November 4, 2009
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Well John that I believe was the whole point of this.To see if a lab would work with a si person.That is the question put all personal feeling aside and do an actual study on a person who has done si and then create a paper for peer review is it possible ,some day I hope.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by stopgetinpopped on November 4, 2009
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I also think that the whole point to the Anti Si camp, is that No Lab is going to work with an SI'r because....simply put.... SI is nothing new and when it was new it showed unarguably that nothing could be gleaned from it...ie. the risks outweigh the benefits.
It's funny no one has been able to answer my simple question of "Why?"
Why would anyone in their right mind utelize ego and poor handling technique to be bitten as many times as an SI'r is bitten just to see if it worked? And I'm talking about the unintended bites from just picking them up?
Why not learn how to handle the snakes without being bitten? And IF not WHEN a bite occurs, treat it with a safe and effective medicine?
I average 1000 interactions with venomous snakes every WEEK and have made one mistake in 14 years.... SI is simply not needed, nescessary, sane, safe or intelligent. It will never be utelized by any pharmaceutical in any country for any reason.
It is ONLY being practiced today for purposes of 'showing off' .... as I've said several times....EGO... Or best case scenario, it is being inspected and inquired about by the naive'
Cheers!
Terry
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by venominme on November 5, 2009
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Terry, the exact same thing has been said about everyone who keeps venomous reptiles. It is only for ego, there is one question, “Why?”, it is insane, risks outweigh the benefits, it isn’t for science, just EGO. I agree that SI is nothing new, in fact it is quite ancient. We are not doing anything new, we are in some cases duplicating exactly what has already been done, in exact intervals and dosage. You are entitled to your opinion, and just like the ones who say any venomous keeping is wrong and ask “Why”, glad you don’t get to decide for me. No one has agreed to provide access to the lab to do any test or blood work, and no one has provided a link to the peer reviewed paper that says that the risks outweigh the benefits. I believe it was you who wrote “Allergic reactions are very treatable, so that argument holds no water.” Thanks. I think that is always brought up as one of the leading risk factors. My personal interest in SI is directly related to my belief that Mr. Haast has boosted his ability to ward off some of the ills of aging due to his immune system responding to the demands from his exposures to venoms. I don’t really care about surviving the bites (you must have a pretty low opinion of Haast for that) it is the lack of Parkinson’s and Alzheimer’s that got me interested in deliberately stressing the immune system to elicit an expected biological response. I believe Alzheimer’s is an allergy and the body can produce, or be taught to produce, resistance factors. Maybe my little project will lead to something, probably not, but that’s my thing and it amuses me.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Kingetula on November 5, 2009
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Why? I would take the shots to prevent loosing a finger, scars, death or whatever. I will not SI on my own or even try to do it. I'm the type who waits for the product to be made etc... (Like a flu shot)
How many stories have you heard where someone gets bit and barley makes it to the Hospital (Bruce Means, when he took that EDB bite and had to row back to land, or the recent hunter who died as his grandchild tried to save him) It's true, do your best to prevent being bit but even the best of the best screw up! If taking a shot means I avoid loosing my finger, hand, scaring, medical bills, ICU and all the other BS then I'm all for it. Just like Anthrax, give me the darn shot before I get Anthrax or a shot before I get the Flu, Polio or whatever.
I would never do SI on my own, but if it became marketable to take a few shots and avoid being treated after the bite... Sign me up!
I understand some think it doesn’t work, and they may be write. My point is I’m all for trying to find something that will help us before we get bit (Just incase). Nothing beats responsible handling but as Bruce Means, the hunters, and the Great Herpetologist before us, mistakes happen.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Kingetula on November 5, 2009
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Don't get me wrong, I thought about SI but I don't have the balls. Maybe if I keep learning more and talked more with people who do it, but for now No!
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by venominme on November 5, 2009
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Hey Kingetula, good decision not to get involved with SI. That is exactly what some of the people have brought up as a big fear. That someone who hasn’t been a student of any of this would get curious and start doing it. That would be as crazy and irresponsible as some have pointed out. I’m an SI’er and I totally agree with that. Don’t even think about actually doing it. Have you read about your immune system? You did mention “keep learning”. Another thing I think both sides would encourage. Glad you find it so interesting, in fact, for some reason this is always THE most popular thread of all on these sites. Hmm... I encourage every venomous keeper to learn and be familiar with terms like antigen, immunoglobulin, titer, t and b cells, adaptive acquired and passive immunity, anaphylaxis, etc. And look up King Mithridates, Henry Sewall, Shibasaburo Kitasato, Albert Calmette, Vital Brazil, and Hideyo Noguchi, for starters. If this stuff interests you, and so many others, read about all these guys and more. It should be interesting to all venomous keepers, as you will see.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by JHarrison on November 5, 2009
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SI and antivenom have no effect on bite site tissue damage. Loss of tissue can not be prevented except by not being bitten. Most severe snakebite worldwide are from Echis and Daboia none of which are being used by SI's.
Human experimentation is regulated by FDA and other groups. All claims by SI's are subjective and not objective so carry very little weight as true research.
There have been many studies on the blood of SI and bite victims all have shown that proper medical care is still the safe treatment. I have attended many conferences on snakebite problems worldwide and SI is not the answer for many reasons. If anyone would like to talk about this they can feel free to come visit or call. Our number is 606-663-9160.
Jim
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by AquaHerp on November 5, 2009
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Along those same lines, there is research being done on animals with natural resistance to venoms (including viperids). The wood rat, opossum, skunk and others are among the subjects.
It is quite possible that these can one day be advantageous to the treatment of snakebite worldwide.
As for human testing in ours, or any laboratory, this is not an easy endeavor. We jump through hoops and piles of paperwork just to work with animal subjects. Just to give my own blood for a paper I am working on was no easy feat. To propose testing, or running tests on human subjects before the front-end work of animal tests have been exhausted would be futile in any lab.
Work on Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, cancers and many others are being done as we speak using a variety of potential agents, including snake venoms.
DH
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Cro on November 5, 2009
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Can anyone here tell me what happened to the folks who were trying to make antivenin in chicken eggs from immunized chickens ?
I think they were based in Wisconsin.
They even published suggesting that the eggs could be eaten in third world countries, and that someone would be able to develop resistance to a snake bite by doing so.
If you use Google Scholar and search "chicken eggs antivenin snake" you will find a number of reference to them from several years ago. But, there is nothing recent.
I wonder if they went out of business, or, ran into snags in the research ? Or, perhaps CroFab came out, and they did not want to compete.
I also find it interesting that back then, Dr. Findley Russel was predicting that sheep "Fab" antivenin would be 20 times better than the horse product. That one has not quite worked out all that well with some types of bites.
Best Regards
John Z
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