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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by pictigaster1 on November 6, 2009
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If you keep reading you will find out it does not work I do not feel like traceing all the specifics now but it does not work on copperhead bites that does not keep them from saying it does.Its a product that they get 2000 or 4000 a vial when one gets bit of course it works.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by agkistrodude on November 6, 2009
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Archie, I know of an A. c. contortix bite that Cro Fab worked fine on. Also, I took 23 vials at $900.00 each. Still expensive, but a huge relief when I was expecting the $2000 to $4000 each that everyone talks about. It depends on your hospital. Take care, Marty
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by venominme on November 6, 2009
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I would like to add, obviously, SI has been going on for centuries through the snake charmers that inoculated themselves with small bites and other crude methods. Bill Haast is a pioneer to basically bring that crude unscientific practice to America back in the forties using a more scientific approach. There hasn’t really been much of a bandwagon of copy cats in half a century. This isn’t going to be a widespread thing by any means. There are not enough case histories or people doing it to be anywhere near being able to make claims that would apply to the masses. With a dozen people now experimenting, this will very slowly change as the case histories become one, then four, then fifteen, etc. There will be a bigger body of work to begin making some hypothesis. In every way, this is in its infancy. Just really beginning. The claims that the risks outweigh the benefits is very misleading, as some of the benefits can be equally extreme. Body parts that are not lost, horrible disfigurement and death averted are some very powerful benefits to anybody putting themselves at risk for such things. The risks mentioned here has always been associated with studies such as the Japanese project where over 40,000 people were immunized in the experiment. Those were studies to get an idea of inoculation entire populations in agricultural regions where snakebite was highest. The fact was that during one three year study, not that many people actually got bit. It wasn’t worth it. The “worth” is also misleading. As a commercial operation, dollar wise, it is cruel to say, but losing a low wage worker or two for a few weeks was not “worth” the cost of inoculating the entire work force. Snake bite isn’t like malaria where half the labor force will call in sick and shut the operation down. The Army study was an experiment to see if it was “worth” inoculating U.S. soldiers to prevent loss of dollars. It wasn’t really about anything else. None of those studies contain a word that these trials resulted in one serious side effect, and most have very positive conclusions and results. Self experimenters should base their program on some of these previous clinical trials and not wing it on their own. That has been the nice thing about coming together and sharing online so we have a way to set some guidelines and compare notes. This sets the stage for a more responsible approach as one and then two and so on take up the idea of self inoculating to carry the desired resistance. There will be no money until one of us posts that we notice our penis stays harder longer, or our hair turned from grey to brown, or our prostrate shrunk, etc. When somebody sniffs a dollar, they will come and show great interest like Cinderella at the ball. Until then, the risks do outweigh the benefits, which are just some a*hole snake nut didn’t have to go to the hospital. No body cares about that.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Nakita on November 6, 2009
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Archie,
When you get time can you post specifics? Every article I have read, including patient accounts, indicates Crofab is indeed effective in the treatment of Copperhead bites. I know after our small misunderstanding the other day it may seem I am calling you out. I assure you nothing could be further from the truth. I am truly fascinated as to why it would work on others but not on you. I wonder if anyone else could chime in with proven documentation that the serum failed to neutralize the venom?
As with the original SI discussion I think some proof as well as peer review of your case would be in order since it seems it is widely accepted that it is effective.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Nakita on November 7, 2009
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I would really like to hear more about the possibility that Crofab does not work for Agkistrodon information from anyone else who may have this information.
I have continued reading everything I can find and thus far every piece of documentation supports that it does. I just ran acroos a post where Chris Harper mentioned it work quite effectively which to me is almost as good as gold.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Kingetula on November 7, 2009
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Norman Benoit,
I was curious and still am, I think being curious is a good thing, you learn when you are curious. Let me sort of reword/tighten up what I said. I wouldn't do it on my own. I may do well in other subjects but Science is not my strong point! I would like to talk to an SIer, I would like to see this done, it's interesting to me. This may be frowned upon by some but I try to keep an openmind. To SI on my own, no way... I'm very curious by nature. I love learning, I love talking with people like AL Cortiz and Paul Moody and others who I will admit know more than I do but listening to people like them teaches me and drives me to want to have the knowledge they do and in the long run makes me a better HOT keeper. I hope one day can pass on what I have learned to someone else one day.
Learning more about SI is just that, understanding what I don't know.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Cro on November 9, 2009
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There are a few things that must be considered here.
The old Wyeth (Crotalidae) Polyvalent Antivenin, was made from horses immunized with the following venoms: Crotalus adamanteus, C. atrox, C. durissus terrificus, and Bothrops atrox.
The starting dose was usually 1 to 5 vials, and that was usually enough to treat the average snake bite. The most severe bites sometimes took 20 to 40 vials.
For many years, it was considered the gold standard in treating the bites of North American Snakes, despite the "serum sickness" hypersensitivity reaction that was often caused by the foreign horse proteins.
The newer CroFab Crotalidae Polyvalent Immune Fab Antivenin, is made from sheep immunized with the following venoms: Crotalus atrox, Crotalus adamanteus, Crotalus scutulatus, and Agkistrodon piscivorus.
The starting dose that CroFab recommends is 4 to 6 vials for mild snake bite, however, most toxin specialists suggest 10 vials to start with for a mild bite, and starting with 20 vials for a more severe bite. Very severe bites can take 60 or 70 vials.
So, it is fairly clear, that if a attending doctor treating a snake bite follows the recommendations from CroFab, they will likely not be using enough of the product to properly treat a bite.
That is where it becomes very, very important for you to insist that your physician call something like the Rocky Mountain Poison Control Center, or Miami / Dade Venom One, as those folks will probably tell your doctor to use much higher doses of CroFab than the product suggest, and they will probably will tell him that CroFab will often need repeat doses the days following the initial treatment.
Note that in both cases, the antivenin is not made with copperhead venom. So, you are relying on what is called "cross-over protection" that comes from being made from pitvipers that are somewhat distant relatives to the copperhead.
Because of local variations in the venom of snakes, that cross-over protection might work fairly well in treating a copperhead bite from say the east coast of the country, but, it might not work well in treating the bite from a copperhead that came from extreme west Texas. The same thing holds true for local variations in the venom from populations of different rattlesnakes.
A proper antivenin would be made from snakes from many different parts of the snakes range. That would be the most likely way to make sure that the factors that would be present in a bite would be properly canceled out by the antivenin that was used. If there was not enough of the "cross-over" effect, it could require dozens and dozens of vials of CroFab before the bite was fully treated.
So, getting back to the original question, Yes, CroFab can be used to treat copperhead bites. However, it might not work all that well for the bites from copperheads from certain locations. And the same thing applies to bites from other snakes like rattlesnakes, and pygmy rattlesnakes, and even local populations of cottonmouths.
The only way around this problem, is to make antivenin using snakes from many local populations, and to use more types of snakes, in the production. It is likely that CroFab would work much better against copperhead bites, if copperhead venom was used in the production of it. Considering that copperhead bites are very common, I wonder why that has not been done.
Perhaps someone needs to create a new poly antivenin, that uses copperhead, cottonmouth, pygmy, and massasauga venom in it's production ?
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by toddg on November 9, 2009
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Considering copperhead bites are rarely fatal, is there really a need for copperhead antivenin?
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Kingetula on November 9, 2009
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http://www.venom-center.com/forums/index.php?topic=2752.0
Antivenom usually stops the progression of tissue damage but does not reverse it. In the picture you see of Archies finger, antivenom is still needed for copperhead bites
This is located at Venomcenter.com
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