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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by stopgetinpopped on October 31, 2009
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Boy, it's been awhile since 'self stickers' have come up in conversation... I see one of them claims to have moved to Columbia in order to practice this garbage.
If SI were as effective in humans as it is in horses than why are the 'self stickers' not using viperid venoms? Or my suggestion, lets go for gold and see it in Taipans.
It's senseless, antivenom is extremely effective...if you disagree with that, just ask the two SI'ers themselves...they have needed it...and used it.
Allergic reactions are very treatable, so that argument holds no water. It boils down to SI is all wrapped around ego. These two have egos that are out of this world and if they just put as much effort into not being bitten... or at least staying sober and not being bitten twice in the same night and requiring antivenom for said bites. Or not spout nonsense about every third world inhabitant innoculating themselves with voodoo science to eliminate snakebite mortality than it would be different.
It would then just be two egomaniacs saying "hold my beer and watch this. Which is their perogative as adults, yet they spout this crap all over the internet encouraging the naive to give it a go...
Just baseless ego and self serving drivel really.
Archie, why did you stop SI "for personal reasons' I'm curious.
Cheers!
Terry
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Cro on November 1, 2009
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Very interesting topic. And, as Karl stated, it is great to see that we can have a Self-immunization discussion here without it turning to personal attacks.
There is no doubt that the folks involved in SI tend to be very egotistical, and at times do not play well together, LOL.
However, that does not mean that scientific knowledge can not be learned from what they are doing. As Dr. Bob stated, if a immunity can be built up in horses and sheep, then, the possibility of a immunity in humans does exist. It is the basic theory that vaccinations is built upon.
I agree with Terry that the use of viperid venoms is a big issue, as venoms are very complex mixtures, and there are parts of venoms that probably can not be immunized against. Some Elapid venoms on the other hand can probably be successfully used in SI.
On the Venom-Center forum, we have given the SI folks a section to post in. Dan has posted a strong
Forum Rules and Disclaimer that must be followed.
This has allowed a lot of SI information to be posted in one location, from a number of people. I think there is scientific value in that, as this topic has been scattered all over the internet in the past, and bringing it together at one location does have merits.
Some of the folks involved are very scientific about what they have been doing, and have done a lot of research. Others are cowboys. I have tried to encourage the folks posting there to be very scientific about what they are doing. Some of them do that, and use technique as good as any lab. Others are all over the map, and are dangerous.
For now, we are letting the forum continue, as long as things do not get out of hand, and the several hundred pages there are interesting reading, some of which have citations that lead to scientific studies on the subject.
That forum requires close watching. It would be very easy for one of the SI folks to kill themselves with what they are doing. They do not encourage kids to get involved in SI, as some have suggested.
Anyway, for now, the forum is there, and it is worth reading if you have an interest in SI. Hopefully, some day, the folks involved will publish in peer review journals, as some of the results do show promise.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by pictigaster1 on November 1, 2009
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Terry the reason I stopped is I had the swine flu then had a serious accident at work and am walking with a cain right now.Also I do not believe that a person can build enough immunity to atrox to ward off a true kill bite so what was the point.Like I stated there are good and bad points and I am not a gunslinger.I am very interested yet cautious.The cowboy irresponcible immage given to those has harmed this subject and those persueing it.I am kind of like Doug at this point I will wait and see the out come.I in know way would do this so I could prove this with a bite.Terry I have had coma shock icu all that I ever want.Snake bite is a serious matter ,we as a group need to watch what we do or they are going to take this hobby away.At this point keeping and breeding are enough for me and I have nothing to prove to any one includeing myself.I am very glad you chimed in ,your opinion as haveing one of the largest venomous collections on the planet earth sets well with me.Thanks Terry.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by pictigaster1 on November 1, 2009
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My last post I feel came off weak .I am a sober person I do not drink or use drugs.I handle venomous snakes almost every day of my life it is my passion my one true love besides my family .Jim ,Terry and Doug , and Rob as well you guys are my heros in this hobby I have a few others Randal ,John Z and there are others.That said One of the guys you speak of, and one most do not know are also my herp heros .The si people are now documenting every aspect of there procedures and makeing some progress in being accepted some are not.The ego thing is pretty much gone at this point and pure research is being conducted.Weather there is a future in this is unknown at this time.Terry I think a black mamba is one of the big dogs as is the water cobra.I will choose my words carefully children do read this .Personal differences does not make any findings invalid in any way.The truth is the truth.What level of immunity one can achieve is the goal of the researchers in question as well as myself.When I recover from my injuries there is a good chance I will do it.Do I believe viper venom can be beat no I do not that is the reason I started.Hopefully some day I will get to meet every one in this thread and discuss this over a published paper or not I still wish to meet each one of you and talk snakes my true love.Where this will go is hard to say but lessons have been learned and the approach has changed.My only wish was to have some one with your connections who would be interested in a study of this subject in person .Not on yourself but on some one who is doing it.I would like to thank every one for there involvement in this thread and this will most likely be my last post here on this subject Thanks every one.............Archie
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Nakita on November 2, 2009
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Some people have to learn by feeling.
Man I truly hope we don't read about Archie winning the Darwin award.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by pictigaster1 on November 2, 2009
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Brother you will win it long before me I no longer enter that contest My shelf is over flowing with them ..lol I no longer enter the race .I brought up a topic and was very cautious and did not insult any one and I respect every one who chimed in ,why do you choose to insult me.I would not choose to insult you.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Nakita on November 2, 2009
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Archie,
I'm afraid you took that the wrong way. I wasn't making fun of you I was actually showing concern for your safety.
We have at least two people who are experts in their field reply with how dangerous and ridiculous SI is yet you appear to have disregarded that information hence my statement that some people have to learn by feeling.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by venominme on November 2, 2009
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I just learned of the thread here from Archie. What amazes me is the people who know so very little about this aspect of their hobby. You can read and learn so much about venom chemistry and how it acts and what happens to you on the molecular level. It is obvious most don’t exactly even know what antivenom is or why it works. Read about your immune system, venomous keepers! As a hot keeper, I have been embarrassed by some guys I have met that supposedly represent me. We are not all knowledgeable responsible good ambassadors for the hobby, right? The same is probably true with the “self stickers”. Don’t paint with such a broad brush. There will be peer reviews, and discoveries will be made. We are learning more all the time about the fantastic potential there is in venoms for medical and health benefits. Ego has absolutely nothing to do with it. If some of you would spend some quality time learning and reading a few scientific papers or books, you might not feel the need to get so defensive and dismissive about the whole thing. Immunizing, whether self or not, is effective and it does work. It would be wrong to make light of those that have done years of research with snake toxins and maybe know a little bit more about it than you. It’s not voodoo, just hit the books and learn. No one should begin any such program without years of research, and that is no different if you are talking about venom or any other toxin.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by stopgetinpopped on November 2, 2009
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Archie,
Actually, your last post was not weak at all in my opinion. I can respect that.
I know I come off as harsh on this topic and for that I apologize to a point.
However, the truth is, as you say these people would like to see how immune they can become. My question which backs up my harshness is simply "why?"
It is not for further understanding of the human immune system, it is not for further understanding of snake venom, it is not for the further study of anything.
It is for ego. That is the only answer.
What benefit is SI? Scientifically, personally, herpetologically? It has none. Listen to how these people discuss SI....I honestly waisted about an hour of my life that I will never get back reading the SI threads on Venom center to see if anything new has developed. It hasn't, It's filled with " I will take 4 bites this week! I will show the non believers! And then the thread goes dead for 4 months with no one showing anyone anything but their childish foot stomping.
The measurements these people are making are nothing short of hysterical... and not in a funny way. "You need to take 2 lines"....good god man! Thats just frightening. It's not scientific in any way. They don't even know what to take notes on.
I've said it before, a Sane adult should be able to do what they will, but expect the other side of the coin to try and show you the logical truth.
Just ask yourself simply "Why?" Let me know the answer.
It has no purpose. At all but ego.
Cheers!
Terry
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Nakita on November 2, 2009
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Norman,
I can't answer for anyone but myself however suffering from Systemic Mastocytosis I can assure you I know quite a bit about the immune system.
I have probably suffered more episodes of Anaphylaxis than 99% of the people on this board.
Please share with us a few scientifically reviewed papers that tout the benefits of this procedure.
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