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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by AquaHerp on November 3, 2009
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I don't recall my "pontificating" anything. I wrote "I don't see any validating evidence that self-immunization works on any level". Given the papers you presented...I still do not. I tried relentlessly to not come off as arrogant. So, let's now toss that to the side. (damn I hate this)
In addition to one of the most modern serpentariums in the country that houses roughly 500 venomous snakes and a fully functional laboratory; we also have an 8000 sq. ft laboratory with all of the modern instrumentation for the purification, characterization and even cloning of snake venoms. We have a cDNA library as well as a monoclonal antibody facility. A functional molecular biology laboratory, instrumentation facility, computer center, mass spec, and the list goes on. We are staffed by some of the finest scientists in the arena. We keep current on all of the latest "scientific" literature and discoveries. We hold weekly seminars to discuss our research and findings as well as hosting scientists from around the globe. We attend the symposiums and seminars related to toxicology, publish regularly in scientific journals as well as work closely with snakebite and venom professionals around the world on every level.
Am I qualified now to answer?
As for Jim. I have known and worked with Jim for nearly 20 years. Mr. Harrison can stand on his own and certainly does not need my help to defend himself, although I could draft pages on his contributions to the venom realm.
I could go on, but at the risk of sounding "arrogant" or being perceived as a novice and someone who needs to be "educated" by someone as advanced and accomplished as yourself, I'll just let it go.
I don’t recall anyone stating “It does not work” or “there is NO documentation on the subject”. I suggest the postings be perused again. If any of this sounded sarcastic or “arrogant” then so be it.
As before...I will eagerly await the publications in the appropriate journals.
Sorry folks….one of those days.
DH
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by venominme on November 3, 2009
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To write "I don't see any validating evidence that self-immunization works on any level" is where you lose all credibility. Would you like to invite a few SI’ers to your marvelous facility and make available those fine scientists and run a few tests? Would you like a blood sample? I would love to be involved in providing some validating evidence for you. I don’t have a peer reviewed paper on my own programs, but I can certainly offer my own blood to a batch of mice, and for a couple of snake venoms, my mice won’t die. I have the antitoxin in my blood, made by my own immune system, just exactly the way a horse or sheep would make it, you know darn well there is no difference. I don’t mean to be confrontational, except when people throw out words like “garbage” and “voodoo”, come on, you know that some have said there is no documentation and that it does not work. I will come there and show you and you could never say again that SI does not work ON ANY LEVEL. Why doesn’t this interest you enough to invite us there? For what it’s worth, we are all venomous keepers with a lot in common, and we would most likely really enjoy each other if we hung out. It’s not that big a deal, I just have to defend myself and fellow SI’ers being painted as all the same and a bunch of kooks. It isn’t cool.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by toddg on November 3, 2009
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Too late Doug. You have been officially labled as arrogant. This thread is going nowhere fast!
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by pictigaster1 on November 3, 2009
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Darn guys .I will only be published if it is for breeding snakes.This is not my area of expertise SOME TIMES i THINK i SHOULD JUST SHUT UP AND AT THIS POINT THAT IS WHAT i WILL BE DOING.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Kingetula on November 3, 2009
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Don't let it get to you Arhie... Many great scientist have been put down over the years but in the end their studies and research made them great however it didn't happen over night in many cases. Go back 75 years and tell someone man will land on the moon or do some of the amazing stuff the medical community does today and you would be put down and laughed at as well. Maybe one day someone will stumble upon something great while SIing... (maybe not) but if someone chooses to try who are we to put them down and insult them? Are we still acting like our grandfathers? Things are discovered by people who take chances and dare to do extreme things.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Kingetula on November 3, 2009
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DIdn't mean to spell your name wrong Archie, my keys stick or I don't push har enough...
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Cro on November 3, 2009
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We could also see a anti-snake bite vaccine developed by one of the big pharma outfits, which is something that some of the SI folks think might be possible some day.
Could be that they are quietly working on something like that right now, and just not making it public. You just never know.
After all, there were folks at one time trying to make antivenin in chicken eggs, just as chicken eggs are used to make vaccines for fighting viruses.
They even speculated that by eating the eggs, that some immunity to snake bite might be possible, and might be used in third world nations as a way to help with snake bites.
Wonder what ever happened to those folks ?
Of course, we are dealing with a venom, and not a virus, however, both still involve the making of antibodies.
Oh, and Scott, we never did land on the moon. It was faked. A bit of research will show that. But, it was a fun charade that most of the country fell for. And, it probably did help stimulate a interest in space exploration that led to the shuttle missions.
Perhaps, in a few years, this country will actually send folks to the moon for the first time. However, I question the cost, as after all, there is not much there to justify the billions of $$$ that it will cost. What can they bring back of value from there, a bucket full of moon rocks ?
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by pictigaster1 on November 3, 2009
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Scott no one has got to me.The only thing that bothers me is when people that I respect start at each others throat.This is not what I wish too see.The advancement of knowledge comes in many forms I have an open mind and breath in every word said to me.I am the one who started this here and am glad I did, hopefully civility will return and knowledge will be gained by all.Thanks Arhie
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Kingetula on November 3, 2009
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John,
Didn't they just blow up part of the moon to see if they could find water particles? Not sure how that went but we may be there sooner then you think if they did. I also heard some rumbling about a man mission to the moon in the not so distant future.
As for the landing on the moon being faked, maybe, maybe not. I've watched those shows sowing how it could have been faked. I don't put it past our Government. I also refuse to be brainwashed into believing life doesn't exist except on Planet Earth! The belief that there isn't life out there is like believing the world is flat! I’m very much a realist!
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Buzztail1 on November 3, 2009
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From "suicide by injection" to "they faked walking on the moon" is quite the stroll in this 6 page thread.
I went back and perused all the previous threads that I could find on self-immunization that have been on this site over the years.
Nothing new - nothing has changed.
On one side - there are several people who practice it and swear by it.
On the other side - there are several people who work with venom collection who correctly point out that there is a severe lack of scientifically reviewed literature documenting the success (or failure) of the self-immunization process.
Just about everybody else falls somewhere in the middle based on whose opinion they respect the most.
These are the same sides with the same issues as the 2002 and 2003 threads on this topic.
So!
Nothing new!
Can we move on?
No-one on either side is likely to change the other sides' minds without new data.
As for the moonwalk - again people will just have to agree to disagree.
R/
Karl
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