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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Kingetula on November 4, 2009
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I just try to keep an open mind. I recieved shots for Anthrax before the war in Iraq and other shots like "flu shots" protect you before you get sick.
Point is, Antivenomom is made for those who have already been bit. Why not research through SI to come up with a shot or shots to protect you before you get bit, just seems like the wise choice? I really hope someone in this field can a safe choice to protect us before we get bit. That is the direction we should be headed, not after we get bit!
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Kingetula on November 4, 2009
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Soryy this sentence got messed up some how...
I really hope someone in this field can a safe choice to protect us before we get bit
Should say
I really hope someone in this field can come up with a safe choice(Shot)to protect us before we get bit.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by venominme on November 4, 2009
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I could say I don’t like the way Jim milks snakes, squeezing their heads to death. It looks cruel and very stressful. It just produces more detritus in the venom that will need to get spun out anyway. Do you have a peer review paper to say I am wrong? Is it o.k. for me to repeat that until you produce the paper? Between you and me, Jim probably knows what he is doing even if there is no peer review paper on proper milking technique. I don’t think it is right to put each other down within the snake keeping “family”. I welcome any discussion with links or something to support your take in the debate. The unfounded name calling and criticism with nothing to back it up, is what is getting called out by the SI people that see it working every day. We are the ones that are attacked and ridiculed and then if we have the nerve to defend ourselves, we get even more criticism from the pitch fork carrying crowd that always enjoys a good witch hunt. Closing your mind and saying “prove it!” to people who are trying to do just that, well, history is full of examples for you to ask yourself which side are you proud to find yourself on. My take is read any textbook on the immune system and then ask how could this NOT work? I think both sides pretty much agree that it does. Of course kids should not take that to be a green light to experiment on themselves and no one is promoting or encouraging that.
Self immunizing is not something I would encourage for anyone. Even for people who milk snakes for a living. Using Jim as an example, he has all the antivenom immediately available. He would have to immunize with about thirty venoms to provide resistance to most of the snakes he will be working with, it isn’t really practical as prophylaxis to envenomation. For a casual hobby keeper, who does not have antivenom readily available because you live in the sticks, are not near a competent medical facility, who can’t afford it, or whatever, the fact is that you can build a resistance to a few venoms, as some of us have done, and provide a margin of resistance that could save your life, buy you some precious time or mitigate some of the more severe effects in the event of an accident.
There will be peer reviewed papers published at some point, but understand it is extremely rare for anyone to even be involved in this at all. There are zero dollars behind it. There is already a rattlesnake vaccine for dogs, you can buy it today. It works. Antivenom itself is about one hundred years old, the discovery of IgE involvement in allergies is only about thirty years old, the Scripps Research Institute recently opened a second sister facility because there are still enormous discoveries yet to be made. Closing your mind and saying “prove it!” to people who are trying to do just that, well, history is full of examples for you to ask yourself which side are you proud to find yourself on. Our understanding of the composition and usefulness of venoms is changing every day. Hillbilly’s have claimed a copperhead bite cured their cancer and science is finding out that it might be true! I believe building resistance to acetylcholinesterase inhibiting venoms may provide a link to a resistance to Alzheimer’s disease. It’s not all about snake bite. The SI’ers are getting the modern equivalent of burning at the stake for daring to put ourselves out there to let you know what’s happening ahead of those peer reviewed articles. Those articles are always letting others know what someone already has known for some time. The knowledge and discovery are ALWAYS first, then the review. I don’t think there’s a peer review paper to say that bumblebee’s can fly either, you can chose to believe that they don’t in the mean time.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by BobH on November 4, 2009
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I am really reluctant to step back into this but I think there have been a lot of good points made here. One point of contention is everyone keeps coming back to peer reviewed articles. To these people I would ask how many papers they have sent in to Toxicon, or Science or Nature, lately? Todays science journals are really, really picky on what they publish....they have to be. But long gone are the days of observations on one snakebite victum. Some of the really classic papers by the Minton's (and yes they were personal friend of mine too) probably would not get published today. You need enough data for statistically significant results. Also you need a lot of equipment.....look at Doug's list...infact Doug probably has enough equipment to actually run titers on the si ers. Where did he get all that equipment...probably a lot from grants that seek to answer either fundamental biological (venom)questions or ones that could benefit thousands of people.
I am like Archie and I hate to see this become such a battle topic. I sort of look at it like there are two kinds of venomous keepers, those that think they are never going to get bit and those that know it will happen one day if you do it long enough.
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by AquaHerp on November 4, 2009
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Bob-
Not to change the topic...although it could stand it.
Where in Southern Indiana are you from?
DH
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by JHarrison on November 4, 2009
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venominme, etc.:
Not sure that it's worth bothering with, but I guess I will post anyway.
First, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of papers on bees and other insects flying.
Just for fun: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/01/060111082100.htm
Second, the people who make the claims are the ones that have to prove it. Scientists don't run around making claims-- they notice something interesting, wonder if it may be useful or whatever, and then they do a study. If the study shows something, they publish it.
You don't have to be a genius to publish. You do, however, have to do the work, take criticism, and you have to have done the research in a valid manner. (Um, I think being able to spell and form a complete sentence may also be required.) For just about any pharmaceutical use, there is a very well-established way to do research. First, in vitro studies. Second, animal studies. Third, more animal studies (probably a larger group, etc.) Then come studies on actual people. There are a million valid reasons why the people studies don't come first. Visit the FDA website to see some of those reasons. Last comes releasing the drug (or whatever outcome) to the public in general. My problem with SI (and I think Doug, Rob, and others agree, though I won't speak for them) is that many of the people who practice it just want to jump to the final steps of experimenting on people (themselves) and making claims about how effective it is.
If SI at some future time does show to be a good idea, Jim will be the first to acknowledge it. The problem is not that humans don't generate any antibodies. The problem is that the few studies that have been published on SI say it is not a good idea for several reasons, many of which have already been listed in this thread and others (see Chippaux's quote). Most of the studies on venom immunization are old. Why? Because they indicated it is not a good idea, and research is moving in other directions. For example, check this out: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=poison-cobra-venom-therapy
Perhaps some one will come up with a new take on it. However, until that new take is researched and duly published in peer-review, it is just an idea that has not been proven. I'm not sure why this is so hard (impossible) for some people to grasp. I'm also not sure why so many people carry on about how pioneers are always the ones that were/ are ridiculed and how no one believed them at first. Yeah, so what? How many insane people were laughed at or not believed for every genius? I'm betting lots and lots. (Not that we should ridicule insane people, but that what used to happen.) Just because a few people had fantastic ideas ahead of their time doesn't meant that everyone who thinks up *any* idea is a genius who was born too soon.
Please note this post was made mainly for my own entertainment. As has been noted, most of this is old news and we are just rehashing things that have been said before.
Kristen
*Zips up flame suit. Backs slowly away.*
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by BobH on November 4, 2009
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Doug, I grew up in Evansville, Indiana. Parents went to GA and I went with them. I returned to Evansville to get my BA degree and worked in the pharmaceutical business for 8 years before moving back to GA to spend another 6 years doing pharmaceutical animal testing.
Bob
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by AquaHerp on November 4, 2009
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Awesome Bob.
I grew up in Indiana and spent my early days herping all over the state. I spent seven years working with timbers in the backhills of Indiana; Brown County on down. I think I visited every small town in the state while doing bat work for a few years. Still miss the place although I do get back a few times a year.
Thanks
DH
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by venominme on November 4, 2009
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My apologies to everyone here for my ranting, most here have been pretty open minded and not so crazy either way, which is the right place to be. I know of about a dozen who I can name who are doing this, again, it is no big deal, extremely rare, not worth getting bent out of shape about. Kids, don’t do it. Sorry if my posts look like I was over the top. A beer affects me more than some venoms. :P
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RE: Suicide by Injection of Rattlesnake Venom
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by Buzztail1 on November 4, 2009
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Again.
This is not a taboo subject.
And almost everyone has managed to be civil in their disagreement.
Naturally, I foolishly took time away from moderating to go to work (with mambas, bushmasters, etc) and the name calling started.
I would like to thank everyone who has bitten their tongue and censored their own comments to make this a civil thread.
The next time "Bud" makes a hit and run name calling post, I will revoke his permission to post on this site.
Personal attacks will not be tolerated. I am, however, leaving his post in this thread for continuity. It makes the rest of you guys look like saints. ;-)
R/
Karl
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