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RE: Education to pursue for a snake milker
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by SmokeydaBear on May 3, 2010
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Thanks DH. You are right in your assumption that I will be dealing with the venom and not the snakes. My associate is the one who has the experience with snakes and he would be handling them. I guess I'm also asking this question on his behalf as well because he would need to get the permits and licenses to handle the snakes. And like I said before, a URL is exactly what I'm looking for. I've tried navigating some gov't pages but they are so lengthy and confusing that it's hard to know if I'm even reading the right things. I guess I should be more specific with my questions.
Are there certain educational requirements to get a permit/license to hold and raise snakes for the purpose of extracting their venom?
How would one learn about the application process for these permits/licenses?
What educational requirements are required by law to work with the venom to make antivenin? I'm not talking about what requirements are needed to get picked up by a lab, but purely what is required to legally do the procedure.
Thanks to anyone who answers. I'm trying to to utilize every resource I can to get these answers and this site is a great resource with a lot of great people on it. Thanks a bunch,
Henry
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RE: Education to pursue for a snake milker
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by JHarrison on May 3, 2010
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First to produce antivenin you would need several millions of dollars to just get to stage three testing for a new drug. You can not use the methods that are already being used by antivenin producers because they own the rights to those methods.
All the antivenin producers have more then enough venom at this time.
If you want to work with venom go to college and get a degree.
There are no short cuts.
Jim Harrison
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RE: Education to pursue for a snake milker
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by SmokeydaBear on May 3, 2010
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Please, I'm not asking if you think it's possible or not, and I'm not asking for shortcuts. I'm not asking for advice, just information.
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RE: Education to pursue for a snake milker
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by JHarrison on May 3, 2010
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Not sure what you want. I stated the facts about venom and antivenom. I have only been in the venom business for 34 years. I just state the facts about antivenom production.
Jim Harrison
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RE: Education to pursue for a snake milker
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by venomrob on May 3, 2010
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There have been some very good posts on here about your idea with all the info you need and the only thing I have not read is that the supply for A.V. is high and the demand is low. There is not a huge market for this based on that very fact.
Rob
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RE: Education to pursue for a snake milker
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by JHarrison on May 3, 2010
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Below is the standard reply we give to all those people who write to us asking how to be an extractor. Take it as you will; it is not meant to be snotty but just realistic. Maybe you are the next big thing- but please realize that we get emails just about every week, and these types of questions pop up on this forum a lot too. As far as 'requirements'- it is the lab quality and sterility that matters, not 'snake' related permits. The FDA regulates all drugs in the US- it is them you should turn to for information on creating a new AV. As far as the animals go- remember that you have to be located in a place where keeping venomous is legal. There are no certificates or licenses for handling snakes- there are not enough people doing it for any sort of thing like that to exist.
The letter starts below.
Kristen
KRZ
First, anti-venom supplies are not low (even coral snake, there is plenty of the Mexican product available for emergency use) and even when they become low it is not due to a lack of venom.
Second, all venoms must be freeze-dried to be stored and shipped-- at minimum a $10,000 investment, plus supercold freezer, centrifuge, scales.... you are looking at $30,000 at least and probably more like $50,000 just for equipment.
Third, you need literally hundreds/ thousands of snakes to provide any quantity of venom. So, you need a place to put all these snakes, cages, water bowls, bedding, feed, HVAC systems. Most quality racks are running several thousand each now for 10-30 snakes. The building(s) you house them in better be in great shape so you never have an escape.
How many snakes can you take care of yourself without needing employees? I don't know how hard you like to work, personally I work 8-10 hours a day 7 days a week (yes, really) and I can take care of roughly 400-600 snakes, (I don't extract) depending on if they are babies or adults and the species- cobras are more work than rattlesnakes, for example. I don't know of any venom production facility that has only one person who does it all. So, if you have employees you are going to need worker's comp. This is a huge expense as taking care of venomous snakes is hazardous. If you have employees, you will either need the time to take care of payroll yourself or be ready to pay someone else to do it.
Lastly, unless you are a published M.D. or Ph.D., probably no one is going to buy venom from you anyway. The venom providers that exist now (ourselves included) have worked for decades to build a reputation. There are so many people out there trying to sell venom that have no idea what they are doing, that researchers are very leery of someone they have never heard of. This may be unfair, but it is the way it is. So be ready to absorb the cost of all of the above for at least several years with little to no profit.
If you want to work with snakes, look for a job at a zoo or nature center, or with your state's fish and wildlife as a field researcher, or with a consulting company doing field work. You would need a bachelor's degree for any of these. You could breed snakes for the pet trade. If you want to work with venoms, get a Ph.D. and do research. Many venom researchers never buy venom, they keep the snakes they need themselves and extract what they need. If snakebite interests you, get either an Ph.D. or an M.D. and do research in the places where snakebite is a problem-- there is a real need there-- the problems of logistics, distant medical care, affordability are real and do need people to work on them.
I am not trying to be rude or stomp on your personal dreams/ wishes/ whatever. I am just explaining the situation as I see it. Jim Harrison (my husband, director of the zoo) and I do not take a salary from the zoo. We live off of a small pension he gets from being a retired police officer. The zoo makes enough to support itself, but not solely through venom sales- we also are open to the public and do educational programs at schools, etc. Without one of these three avenues we would not still be here.
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RE: Education to pursue for a snake milker
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by AquaHerp on May 3, 2010
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Kristen,
Great post.
We have approx. 500 snakes at our center and just the routine husbandry is 2 full time staff. Another full time for species validation, collecting, and general facility oversight. Add another part timer for weighing venom and keeping the database. Another part timer for mice and rabbits.
Our laboratory itself employs another 17 staff.
Caging is Neodesha, these run between 80.00 and 300.00 on average. Now multiply that by 500. Add shelving. Water bowls, hide boxes and butchers paper for each. Disinfectant for cleaning each one. Paper towels. Handling equipment. We won't even get into latex gloves, parafilm, P-cups, Eppendorf tubes, disposable pipettes, ice, lab coats..............
On top of this, we have a whole university backing us for repairs, utilities, security and other indirect costs.
Again, the money just is not there for antivenom production. This is why companies like Wyeth dropped production. In countries where snakebite is a bigger problem, these facilities are almost wholly government subsidized and regulated. Even then, costs are not recouped as most cannot afford to stock it in the clinics.
The real money may be in selling supplies to these places. Build a better hide box that stands up to constant bleaching and the heat from cage washers. Build a better pinning tool. Think of it like the gold rush days of the old west. Very few got rich from hitting a vein or panning from the creek. But many got rich selling them the pans, picks and shovels.
DH
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RE: Education to pursue for a snake milker
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by SmokeydaBear on May 3, 2010
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Ah finally. I really do appreciate your financial concerns, but like I said before, money is not an issue for me (lucky, right?). I'm purely interested in the legal barriers I'll have to face and you've enlightened me.
Sorry if I've come off a bit rude-- It's completely unintended. I do understand that I'm talking to a very knowledgeable group of people here and that it's probably tempting to put me in my place with what seems to be an impractical idea but keep in mind that I do understand how impractical it is. I'm simply looking for very specific information on permits/licenses and whether or not a specific education is needed to get those licenses. I know the lab equipment is expensive and was also wondering if there are specific criteria/standards required of a lab that works with venom.
Thanks to all those who have tolerated my stubborn ways. I'm currently in the process of choosing a major and signing up for classes which is why I've been so adamant about specifics. You said a PhD is necessary if I would ever want anyone to buy antivenin--does that mean that it is legally required for the sale, or that no one wants to deal with shotty amateur antivenin.
Henry
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